The Sinking of the RMS Titanic and other ships.

[sdreid]

Andrea Doria was probably a bit of a wake up call that modern technology isn't infallible, given that she was one of the first major sinking of the passenger liners that were fitted with radar. Taking 11 hours to sink meant that there was a lot of drama to play out and no doubt you would have seen the same images then as documentary shows replay now, those taken from planes overhead....

Yes Adam, I think it is probably the same footage.

Another sinking that's interested me is that of the Brazilian scout cruiser Bahia which went down on July 4 of 1945 with the loss of about 350 sailors, reportedly from an accidental explosion. There is conjecture that it was actually sunk by one of the rogue German u-boats that refused to surrender when their country did and that this was hushed up to prevent a panic. The most notable were the U-530 that did not surrender until it pulled into port in Argentina on July 10 of 1945, more than two months after Germany surrendered and 6 days after the Bahia sunk and the U-977 that didn't surrender, also in Argentina, August 17 of 1945, more 6 weeks after the sinking, 15 weeks after Germany gave up and two days after Japan surrendered.

[Adam Went]

Stan:

Andrea Doria was probably a bit of a wake up call that modern technology isn't infallible, given that she was one of the first major sinkings of the passenger liners that were fitted with radar. Taking 11 hours to sink meant that there was a lot of drama to play out and no doubt you would have seen the same images then as documentary shows replay now, those taken from planes overhead....

Remember reading as well that Calamai, the Captain, never forgave himself for what had happened till his dying day - he didn't even want to leave the ship as it was sinking. Much like William Turner of the Lusitania.

Cheers,
Adam.

[sdreid]

I remember seeing the pictures of the Andria Doria sinking on the evening news on the day.

It was in a Rod Serling's Night Gallery episode about a guy who always winds up with doomed ships also, if I remember correctly - Titanic, Lusitania and, in the final scene, Andria Doria.

According to some reports, Vestris was the last ship to contact USS Cyclops in 1918 before it vanished so it sounds almost like the same deal.

[Adam Went]

Ben:

Sounds similar to Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon and his offer to give the crew a fiver to replace their kits which they'd lost in the sinking, and this being popularly seen as a bribe of some sort. It was the Duff Gordon's boat which had capacity for 40 people and left the ship with 12. Must say I don't think Sir Cosmo did anything wrong, though he never lived it down - J. Bruce Ismay is another story.

Stan:

So the old saying that "A GOOD captain goes down with his ship" isn't quite so true in that case, eh?

Errata:

Yeah, sounds very much like an instinct "what the hell have I done?" type reaction. The Empress was on her side before most people even knew what had happened.

Mayerling:

Thanks for the info about Frank Towers. Lucky man indeed! Ghosts Of The Abyss was dedicated to Walter Lord who died around the time that it came out - his book "A Night To Remember" and the film that it spawned remain two of the great pieces of Titanic media ever, more than 50 years on.

Empress and Andrea Doria suffered very similar fates in terms of their collisions - fortunately for Andrea passengers, she took some 11 hours to sink and there was no great loss of life, unlike the Empress - if a ship like that sinks in 14 minutes, sadly it's going to be a massive loss of life.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Mayerling]

Hey all,

Jeff:

Yeah I think you're right about Lusy, whatever it was clearly was enough to sink the boat before most people even knew what had happened - I understand that the power went out almost instantly after the second explosion as well, so they had no real control over the boats direction and, obviously, no electricity. George Henderson said he thought at the time that it was strange that the boat seemed suddenly to be heading straight towards them!

Apologies if i've asked this before, but have you (and everybody else) seen Ghosts Of The Abyss?

If you ever get the chance to get a copy of Bob Ballard's "Exploring The Lusitania" (highly recommend it), Henderson's story is in there.

Stan:

Fascinating story but terrible about the shark attack.
When the Britannic sank in 1916 there was only 30 or so casualties, and IIRC nearly all of those were because panicking crew had launched a couple of lifeboats while the boat was still moving and they had ultimately been sucked into the propellers, which were just raising to the surface of the water. Terrible fate.

Of course there was also our very own S.S. Princess Alice, which I wrote an article about last year in Casebook Examiner - took just 4 minutes to sink after being more or less split in two. She was also raised very shortly afterwards, more than anything because the remains lay in the shallow water and were blocking seafaring traffic through the Thames.

Errata:

Not sure about the boiler man but I know there was a lady, a nurse I believe, who travelled on both Titanic and Lusitania. Can't think of the name off the top of my head (for some reason Violet Jessop rings a bell but don't quote me, she might have been from the Britannic and i'm getting wires crossed) - seem to recall that she was also on board the Olympic when it had a collision with the HMS Hawke and sustained some pretty major damage.

Might have read the testimony of Storstad's captain at some point but can't remember it now. I know fog was again the major culprit though, in the terrible conditions of the St. Lawrence River, and she took even less time than Lusitania to go down!

Why no travel on boats? They're safer than aeroplanes.

Meanwhile, here's one you'll all enjoy - for just $60,000 USD you can dive to the Titanic to be with her for the centenary memorial next year. Check it out:

http://www.wildwings.co.uk/wwtitanic11.html

Lucky people who will be doing that!

Cheers,
Adam.

I'm going to try to write some of this again. The way this site cuts into long replies is really aggrevating.

I wrote to Walter Lord once and he replied (I still have his letter). The crewman supposedly on Titanic, Lusitania, and Empress of Ireland was Frank "Lucky" Towers. I questioned the chances of such a triple survival. However, Lord checked into it, and Lord found that no crewman of that name was on any of those three liners. It is therefore an urban legend.

Violet Jessup was a member of the crews of those three sisterships, and wrote of her experiences on Olympic, Titanic, and Britannic.

Vestris is an interesting disaster - and it produced two photos I always was fascinated by - one of the passengers looking terrified on the sloping deck, and the other of the ship (taken from the stern) just before the last plunge.
They rank up there with the photos of the sinking Andrea Doria.

The controversy of the Storstad and Empress was the matter of each ship claimint they saw the lights of the other ship on the correct side for passing before the collision. But they gave the wrong side and lights for both ships when describing these. Possibly the fog had something to do with this.

Jeff

[Errata]

Hey all,
Errata:

Might have read the testimony of Storstad's captain at some point but can't remember it now. I know fog was again the major culprit though, in the terrible conditions of the St. Lawrence River, and she took even less time than Lusitania to go down!

The captain of the Storstad is the reason she went down so fast. He hit the Empress of Ireland, knocking a small hole in her and locking the two boats together. At which point the Captain of the Storstad decided that in order to prevent the Empress of Ireland from sinking, he needed to "plug the hole in her with his own ship. So he directed the Storstad to drive forward into the hole, and broke her in half. I can't imagine how he thought that was going to work.

[sdreid]

I believe its coal shifted in the high seas which caused the Vestris to develop a critical list that only increased as water began to wash the deck.
According to reports all 13 children aboard and most of the women were lost because their lifeboats were too close and were sucked under when the ship finally turned over and went down. DeVore's 18-year-old son, Billy, did survive and went on to compete in several Indianapolis 500s, last entering in 1954. He died in 1985. There were several lawsuits as the result of the actions of the captain, who went down with his ship, and the crew.

[Ben]

The Vestris had also caught fire in 1919 and was consequently run aground off the coast of North Carolina. On board was Norman Campbell Chambers, who survived the Titanic disaster in lifeboat #5, where he offered the use of his pistol to tennis pro Karl Behr "should the worst come to the worst".

All the best,
Ben

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

Jeff:

Yeah I think you're right about Lusy, whatever it was clearly was enough to sink the boat before most people even knew what had happened - I understand that the power went out almost instantly after the second explosion as well, so they had no real control over the boats direction and, obviously, no electricity. George Henderson said he thought at the time that it was strange that the boat seemed suddenly to be heading straight towards them!

Apologies if i've asked this before, but have you (and everybody else) seen Ghosts Of The Abyss?

If you ever get the chance to get a copy of Bob Ballard's "Exploring The Lusitania" (highly recommend it), Henderson's story is in there.

Stan:

Fascinating story but terrible about the shark attack.
When the Britannic sank in 1916 there was only 30 or so casualties, and IIRC nearly all of those were because panicking crew had launched a couple of lifeboats while the boat was still moving and they had ultimately been sucked into the propellers, which were just raising to the surface of the water. Terrible fate.

Of course there was also our very own S.S. Princess Alice, which I wrote an article about last year in Casebook Examiner - took just 4 minutes to sink after being more or less split in two. She was also raised very shortly afterwards, more than anything because the remains lay in the shallow water and were blocking seafaring traffic through the Thames.

Errata:

Not sure about the boiler man but I know there was a lady, a nurse I believe, who travelled on both Titanic and Lusitania. Can't think of the name off the top of my head (for some reason Violet Jessop rings a bell but don't quote me, she might have been from the Britannic and i'm getting wires crossed) - seem to recall that she was also on board the Olympic when it had a collision with the HMS Hawke and sustained some pretty major damage.

Might have read the testimony of Storstad's captain at some point but can't remember it now. I know fog was again the major culprit though, in the terrible conditions of the St. Lawrence River, and she took even less time than Lusitania to go down!

Why no travel on boats? They're safer than aeroplanes.

Meanwhile, here's one you'll all enjoy - for just $60,000 USD you can dive to the Titanic to be with her for the centenary memorial next year. Check it out:

http://www.wildwings.co.uk/wwtitanic11.html

Lucky people who will be doing that!

Cheers,
Adam.

[Errata]

No doubt you've heard the story of George Henderson, the young lad who was picknicking with his family at the Old Head of Kinsale while the Lusitania was sinking?

Wasn't there some tale about a boiler man or something who was on both the Titanic and the Lusitania?

And have you ever read the testimony of the Captain of the Storstad, the boat who hit the Empress of Ireland? I don't know anything about boats, except that I won't get on one.(My mom gave me A Night to Remember to read when I was like, 10) But I've asked people who know boats to explain that man's decision to me and they can't do it. It's like he thought magic was suddenly going to apply. It's really bizarre.

[sdreid]

Being a race fan, I might as well throw in the SS Vestris that sank off the east coast of the U.S. in November of 1928 with loss of 114. Two Indianapolis 500 drivers, Norm Batten and Earl DeVore, were on board with some racing cars they were hoping to run in Argentina while the tracks were snowed over up here. The ship capsized probably from a combination of overloading and high seas. Both drivers were said to have saved several people before they died. Batten drowned and DeVore was eaten by a shark as the crew looked on refusing to help.

[Mayerling]

Hey all,

Errata:

Agree with you. I think James Cameron did a brilliant job of showing us in Ghosts Of The Abyss what Titanic looks like both internally and externally now, most of the areas that can be accessed have now been accessed - if the same could be done for other ships, would there be any need to even consider the possibility of expending so much technology and money on even attempting to raise them and risk destroying the sites altogether? Unfortunately some are in it just for the money and notoriety, however.

Jeff:

You're right that the water where Lusitania is is certainly much more volatile than that at the Britannic site. I remember hearing once that they were taking guided diving tours down to the Britannic as something of a tourist attraction - don't think they'd be attempting that with the "Lusy" though! I think the island you're thinking of might be Kea - Captain Bartlett tried desperately to beach the Britannic there after the mine/torpedo struck (probably a mine), but didn't make it and of course it just made the flooding process faster. In the end they were extremely lucky to get away with just 30 odd casualties. Captain Turner of the Lusitania also tried to do the same thing, and we all know what happened there - it's almost inconceivable that a 32,000 ton, 700+ foot leviathan like that could be sunk in under 20 minutes.

No doubt you've heard the story of George Henderson, the young lad who was picknicking with his family at the Old Head of Kinsale while the Lusitania was sinking?

Wonder how the wreck of the Morro Castle is these days? Don't hear much of that anymore.

Anyway, good discussion. It's nice to see there's at least some other maritime enthusiasts around here as well.

Cheers,
Adam.

Hi Adam,

Thanks for noting my interest (and Errata's), regarding ships and shipwrecks.
Long before my interest in crime and Whitechapel, I was fascinated by ships and the Titanic in particular.

I think the wreck of the burned up Morro Castle was scrapped after 1934.

The speed of the wreck of the "Lusy" is amazing. The torpedo may have set off coal dust, and lower deck portholes were prematurely opened (the same may have happened to the Britannic in 1916 too). Ballard was able to show that there was no secret hoard of cannon ammunition (just a small consignment of rifle ammunition) on the ship. Also Schweger only used one torpedo, and was amazed by the confusion on board the vessel and the speed of the sinking.

I did not know of the boy on that picnic.

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

Errata:

Agree with you. I think James Cameron did a brilliant job of showing us in Ghosts Of The Abyss what Titanic looks like both internally and externally now, most of the areas that can be accessed have now been accessed - if the same could be done for other ships, would there be any need to even consider the possibility of expending so much technology and money on even attempting to raise them and risk destroying the sites altogether? Unfortunately some are in it just for the money and notoriety, however.

Jeff:

You're right that the water where Lusitania is is certainly much more volatile than that at the Britannic site. I remember hearing once that they were taking guided diving tours down to the Britannic as something of a tourist attraction - don't think they'd be attempting that with the "Lusy" though! I think the island you're thinking of might be Kea - Captain Bartlett tried desperately to beach the Britannic there after the mine/torpedo struck (probably a mine), but didn't make it and of course it just made the flooding process faster. In the end they were extremely lucky to get away with just 30 odd casualties. Captain Turner of the Lusitania also tried to do the same thing, and we all know what happened there - it's almost inconceivable that a 32,000 ton, 700+ foot leviathan like that could be sunk in under 20 minutes.

No doubt you've heard the story of George Henderson, the young lad who was picknicking with his family at the Old Head of Kinsale while the Lusitania was sinking?

Wonder how the wreck of the Morro Castle is these days? Don't hear much of that anymore.

Anyway, good discussion. It's nice to see there's at least some other maritime enthusiasts around here as well.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Mayerling]

Hey Jeff,

Very interesting about the attempt to raise the wooden boat, and very disappointing that it ended that way - though surely they should have seen it coming!

It's actually worth nothing that plans to raise the Titanic from the ocean floor have been in place as early as 1912, when it sank - some of the more rich and prominent survivors were annoyed that their valuables had gone to the bottom with the ship, and so they wanted to look into whether it was possible to travel down and have them retrieved. Of course, 1912 technology didn't allow it and by 1985, any valuables worth retrieving in 1912 were not in such great shape.

With the Lusitania, divers actually first went down to it in the 1930's and claimed that it was laying on its PORT side - poor lighting and visibility being the culprit there, but you're right, that's in a shocking state - it's been essentially turned into a pancake and is covered with fishing nets and debris, being so close to the Irish coast. The fact that it ploughed into the ocean floor whilst still moving during the sinking process may not have helped the appearance of the interior.

Sad to hear Andrea Doria is going the same way too. In many ways it's lucky that the Britannic is still in such surprisingly good shape!

Hopefully something special can be done for the Titanic for the 100th anniversary in a year from now....

Cheers,
Adam.

Hi Adam,

I think that the issue deals with underwater currents, saline conditions, depth, physical situation as to nearest land, and other features. Britannic, which is near the Aegean Isle of Cos (I think) is in the same depth of water that Lusitania is, but the underwater currents off the Old Head of Kinsale are possibly offshoots of the gulf steam and are stronger than those in the Western Meditteranean. So the Lusitania gets gradually flattened while the Britannic is relatively unscathed.

It helps to be near a or in a harbor when you sink. See my comment about the Hunley, but it was also true about the remains of Mary Rose, and the Vasa. There are other wrecks in the waters around Charleston that might be considered for salvage and restoration. The ironclad Keokuk was turned (in a description in 1863) into a collander during an battle in the harbor, and sank near it's pier. And at Mobile Bay the monitor Tecumseh was sunk in the 1864 battle (hence Farragut's comment: "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" (Tecumseh had been sunk by a Confederate mine, or "torpedo"). It is so close to shore there have been raids by divers seeking souveniers from Tecumseh's wreck.

Another problem is where to put these ships if raised. Cutty Sark (admittedly not a wreck - though a fire victim recently) was turned into a museum. Great Eastern went to scrap unfortunately, but the earlier Great Western was returned to Britain and is being rebuilt.

Jeff

[Errata]

As a rule I'm against raising ships except as a possible way of rescuing survivors, which clearly was not possible with any of the famous wrecks. I agree with Dr. Ballard. These are grave sites, and they are not to be disturbed anymore than we would want someone excavating Arlington for valuables.

However there is one sunken ship that I think does need to be disturbed, and that is the Arizona. I understand the legends surrounding the oil leaks, and I am not immune to them, but it needs to be stopped. They need to drain the oil. The need to do it in the least invasive way possible, but they need to do it.