The Sinking of the RMS Titanic and other ships.

[YankeeSergeant]

Comet

Bloody hell that's good we're flying Turkish Airlines nest month (aka Buddy Holly Airlines) aaaaagh!

They solved the problem with the comets with the later variants and pulled the earlier types from service. How are things in Portsmouth Suze?

[YankeeSergeant]

A night to Remember

Hi Shangas, Jeff, and All,

Was A Night to Remember based on solely on Archibald Gracie's book, or was it taken from more than one book? I've been reading Gracie's book, rather slowly though, and I'm to the opening of the investigation.

Did anyone see the documentaries where they found part of the hull of the Titanic and the companion one where they dove on the Britannic and found some of the same defects in the two ship? I can't remember the name of the programs, but they ran on our History Channel and I think it was either Underwater Detectives or Underwater Archaeologists or something like that.

Celesta, it was based on Robert Lord's book of the same title.

[YankeeSergeant]

HMS Birkenhead

Another forgotten martime disaster is the sinking of the SS. Antinoe, and that one really is heroic.

In 1926, the SS. President Roosevelt sailed out of New York Harbour, setting a course for Germany. The weather was rough and stormish. When they were out at sea, the crew of the Roosevelt recieved news via wireless, that another ship, the SS. Antinoe, was in serious trouble and in danger of foundering. The Roosevelt jotted down the Antinoe's position and immediately steamed to the rescue.

The Roosevelt found the Antinoe rolling in heavy seas, with the crew, though perfectly alright under the circumstances, trapped aboard their vessel, unable to launch lifeboats and escape, due to the rough conditions.

The captain of the Roosevelt decided to send a lifeboat and men over to the doomed ship several times, but this failed due to the weather, resulting in the loss of six of the Roosevelt's boats, and two of its crew.

The captain was determined not to leave the men to drown at sea, and sent a wire to his company in New York City, saying that he was attempting a rescue-mission and would stay alongside the Antinoe until such time as the men were rescued, or until such time as the ship sank and the rescue would be fruitless.

Unknown to the captain, this simple telegram caused a storm, and soon newspapers and journalists were desperate for news. It also caused a storm at the offices of the United States Lines offices.

In those days, as it is today, time means money. The longer a ship stayed at sea, the more money it would cost the company. The captain of the Roosevelt knew this, but he threw it to the wind.

On Thursday, 28th of January, 1926, the weather had finally calmed down. Captain Fried of the Roosevelt deemed it safe to try another rescue, after staying by the Antinoe's side for three and a half days.

This time, rescue was successful and the captain of the Antinoe, a man named Tose, ordered that the married men amongst his crew be the first to be towed to safety. Eventually, everyone, including Tose, were rescued, and the Antinoe left to the mercy of the waves. Fried radioed his offices in New York with the results of his mission and sailed onto Germany.

When the crew of the Roosevelt next docked in New York City, they recieved a hero's welcome and a tickertape parade.

Don't forget the HMS Birkenhead whic foundered near South Africa. The British Army contingent stationed aboard went down (willingly) with the vessel to allow the civilians aboard, mostly women and children to get off safely.

[YankeeSergeant]

U.S.S. Cyclops

Hi Shangas and Celeste,

Titanic is the epitome of a great disaster. Occasionally I have mentioned it on this board, and I have read at least five books on the subject (it's like Jack the Ripper - you can build a whole library just on that subject). Have you used their main website: Encyclopedia Titanica. I've looked it over and it is full of information and discussion boards, similar to the Casebook.

As for other leading shipwrecks:

R.M.S. Lusitania - carrying armaments or not when sunk?

R.M.S. Empress of Ireland - the forgotten big disaster of the 1912 - 1915 period. It's commander, Henry Kendall, is better known for helping to trap Dr. Crippen and Ethel Le Neve on his earlier Canadian-Pacific steamer command, R.M.S. Montrose.

U.S.S. Cyclops - where did this collier sink, and how? Or did the German born Captain turn it over to the enemy (it disappeared in 1918)?

H.M.S. Victoria - the battleship that was rammed by a badly given order in maneuvers in 1893 (and was spoofed in a sequence in the movie KIND HEARTS AND CORONETS in 1949).

There is also possible discussions on ships like the C.S.S. Hunley and U.S.S. Monitor, both of which are presently restored in total or partial state in Charleston and at Hampton Roads.

There is plenty to discuss here.

Best wishes,

Jeff

SPlendid thread and I like the quote Shanga! With regards to the USS Cyclops, there were some minor bits of flotsom found. This is one of those "Mysteries" that happens on occasion much like the USS MAine Where the hype outweighs the fact. The explosion on the USS Miane was in my opinion caused by coal dust igniting. A supposition supported by recent investigation in spite of the initial reports blaming the Spanish. The Cyclops went down in bad weather and given she was transporting coal very well could have suffered the same fate as the Maine. Big Lucy was in fact carrying at the very least small arms from the United States and while Germany was the culprit there is a case to be made that both the U.S. and Britain bear some burden in the fact that weapons were aboard the vessel

[sdreid]

What sort of lock and dam system was in place on the Mississippi River in the early 1940s?

There is a lock and dam about 100 miles north of St. Louis but I don't know about south of there. I know that much because I've taken a houseboat up the Mississippi, sometimes at the wheel, and we turned around there because we didn't want to take the trouble to go through the locks. They don't want to go to the expense to run pleasure craft through the locks so you usually have to wait until a barge comes along and then you go in and out with them, if there's room. Of course if the wickets are down, you can go straight through but they were up that day.

[Ben]

It's a wonder that Doenitz wasn't questioned more closely about all of this, especially given that he spent 10 years in Nuremberg....

Spandau

[Errata]

What sort of lock and dam system was in place on the Mississippi River in the early 1940s?

To the best of my knowledge (which is limited) not much of one. It is and was a heavily used waterway, and pretty stable, water level wise. The Mississippi is not in area of the country that uses either hydro-electric power, or any significant irrigation. The problem with the Mississippi is that it is sandy bottomed, and the sand shifts. Thus the whole "Mark Twain" thing on the river. The sandbars shifted regularly enough to require a person constantly checking depth.

I have been in a good many cities on that river and to my knowledge I have never seen a dam. A: I could have missed it and B: that doesn't mean there didn't used to be. Although I do know that there is a lot of money in paddlewheel and flatboat casinos and cruises, which I would imagine would be less attractive on a regularly dammed river.

[Errata]

Errata:

Interesting. Has there ever been an attempt, or any plans to attempt using underwater metal detection instruments to see if there is anything like a submarine in the area?

Cheers,
Adam.

Sure. The problem is that half of the cargo containers made since the 17th century seem to be at the bottom of the Mississippi. You can stand on the shore at any location and point to sunken barges. The problem is not so much whether or not there are boats at the bottom of the Mississippi, as much as how do you distinguish the million or so sunken cargo barges from a U-Boat.

And it's been like 60 years. I would think thats enough time for Germany to screw up it's courage and ask for the dang thing back. Unless they blew it up during the war... there is that version also.

[sdreid]

What sort of lock and dam system was in place on the Mississippi River in the early 1940s?

[Adam Went]

Stan:

I've heard of there being secret stashes of gold and valuables to help support escaped Nazi war criminals, but buried in Antartica? Really? It wouldn't have been much use to them there! South America is probably the most likely scenario given how many of them lived and/or were found there in later decades. There's always been rumours that Martin Bormann was another one who made his way there, despite supposedly dying in Berlin in the first days of May 1945.

It's a wonder that Doenitz wasn't questioned more closely about all of this, especially given that he spent 10 years in Nuremberg....

Errata:

Interesting. Has there ever been an attempt, or any plans to attempt using underwater metal detection instruments to see if there is anything like a submarine in the area?

Cheers,
Adam.

[Errata]

In 1942, the merchant ship Virginia was sunk in the mouth of the Mississippi River by the U-507 with the loss of 26 mariners so German u-boats were in the area. They also blew up a dock when one of the torpedoes missed the Virginia and hit land.

Yes, but supposedly we are talking about it being somewhere between Memphis and Minneapolis, theoretically around St. Louis. Which is not bright. I mean, it's hard to say nice things about the Nazis, but they were meticulous about military resources. It's hard to picture them wasting a U-Boat by sending it up the worst possible river for submarine traffic.

[sdreid]

In 1942, the merchant ship Virginia was sunk in the mouth of the Mississippi River by the U-507 with the loss of 26 mariners so German u-boats were in the area. They also blew up a dock when one of the torpedoes missed the Virginia and hit land.

[Errata]

The German U-Boat scenario is perfectly possible, given that as you say there were indeed U-Boats which were at sea at the time of the surrender who refused to obey their orders.

For some reason, it is generally accepted down here that there is a U-boat in the Mississippi River that got pretty far up before getting stuck on a sandbar. The story goes that that they all sat in this tin can 10 feet under the water and died rather than risk discovery. Depending on who you ask, the submarine was either destroyed by German agents, or is still in there, buried under the shifting sands of the river. Which ih possible since the Mississippi buries and unburies stuff all the time. The problem is, not one single fact has ever been applied to this theory, but everyone believes it.

[sdreid]

Hi Adam:

Yes, both the U-530 and U-977 have been mentioned as possible Hitler escape vessels. The U-977 was also said to have possibly gone to Antarctica to secretly bury tons of Nazi gold before making for Argentina to run up the white flag on August 17 of 1945.

[Adam Went]

Stan:

The German U-Boat scenario is perfectly possible, given that as you say there were indeed U-Boats which were at sea at the time of the surrender who refused to obey their orders. There has actually been conjecture in the past that some of these last U-Boats could have been responsible for transporting high-ranking Nazi leaders who were fleeing Europe down to South America, including possibly the escaped Adolf Hitler himself. Not sure how much truth there is in all of it, but it's an interesting scenario!

Karl Doenitz was of course supreme commander of the U-Boat fleet as well as successor to Hitler after April 30, 1945, so it would be interesting to know whether he had given any "special instructions" to his remaining U-Boats in that time.... where's that conspiracy thread of yours!?

Cheers,
Adam.