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Yet it does strike me as odd that Henry VII, once he was crowned, offered Sir James Tyrell a job as a retainer of some kind. Can't quite see the Welsh Wizard doing that if he was certain-sure that Tyrell had bumped off the Princes - had Henry done so in the knowledge that Tyrell was guilty, he would have been seen by the generality as condoning an act of child-murder. Unfortunately, in about 1502, Tyrell got himself involved in an act of treason when he gave his support to Edmund de la Pole who was an exiled Yorkist claimant to the throne. Tyrell, it seems, was biting the hand that was feeding him, so he was duly nicked and off to Tower Green and the block he went. Thomas More it was who claimed that prior to his execution Tyrell confessed to killing the Princes, but if this confession was ever written down, the document has never been found. Other commentators at the time made no mention of this claimed 'confession'. But as we know, More was profoundly anti-Richard III after Henry took the throne, even though he had said kind things about him prior to Bosworth.You think Richard pulled a Henry II, who will get rid of Beckett. I think he already had it planned out to use Tyrell. Tyrell had escorted Richard's mother-in-law Anne Beauchamp out of sanctuary 11 or 10 years before for Richard to lock up and have declared legally dead so Richard knew Tyrell and what he wouldn't or would do probably quite well by 1483. So it probably wasn't a case of whose gonna help me off my nephews and more of a case of Tyrell I have a job for you. I know from what you did in France/Wales/Scotland that you can bash kids sculls in with the best of 'em. How about earning a Knighthood.
Henry VII had to be a bit careful in his first year or so on the throne, as he was very well aware that Richard III had a more legitimate claim to the throne than either the Princes or Henry VII himself - who to this day is seen by some historians as a usurper.
Just to mention that Bosworth today was calm, serene and sunny. It's a lovely part of the world, and I'd strongly recommend anyone with an interest in Richard III and the Battle to take time out to visit it some time. The Battlefield Centre is magnificent, worth every penny, and there are also some very good pubs and restaurants around and about.
GrahamWe are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver BlazeComment
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Hahaha of all the things said about a monarchy, I wouldn’t think that would rate attention. The possible key to veracity of the claim is that first language only implies what you speak at home. With most royals being multilingual it’s a miracle they didn’t end up with a Yiddish like lingual stew at the end of the day. It’s not a dig. Anyway I think the quote, or some semblance of it is in a book called Royal Babylon by Karl Shaw. I believe in reference to the Hanoverians. I’ll see if I can dig it up and give you the exact quote if you like.Originally posted by gallicrow View PostThe early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.Comment
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As far as I can recall, the last British king who had diffculty with speaking and writing English was the Hanoverian George I, although I stand to be corrected on this.
GrahamWe are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver BlazeComment
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[QUOTE=Graham;n722117]As far as I canThe early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.Comment
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[QUOTE=Errata;n722214]Stupid phone. As far as I can tell. But German as the language at home got another boost with Victoria. I would not pick German as the language my mother cooed into my ear with, but my ear has been shaped by my mothers love of war movies.Originally posted by Graham View PostThe early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.Comment
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Graham,
Yeah that is a bit strange, Henry VII giving Tyrrell a Job/Pension. I wonder what Elizabeth of York, his wife thought of that later on. The Princes were her brothers after all. I think Henry just didn't know about Tyrell shenanigan's. Maybe he, as in Tyrell, explained away supporting Richard and promised Henry unwavering support. In other words, maybe he was just a fast talker.
I wonder what Bosworth looks like in the Winter. I live in the States so I have only seen it on TV. You all say Bosworth Field and I start thinking a Cornfield like in Iowa where I grew up. What you all say is a field we would call just woodland or a wood lot.
Errata,
The first Monarch to speak English was Edward III who opened Parliament in that language in 1362. I think, I could be wrong. He probably didn't speak it all the time but I bet he could when he had to.Comment
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True, but I bet we'd struggle to understand much of what he said, predating as it did the "Great Vowel Shift".Originally posted by Semper_Eadem View Post
Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)Comment
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Hi SE,Originally posted by Semper_Eadem View Post
it seems that the only commentator to actually name James Tyrrell as being the dispatcher of the Princes was that notorious turncoat Sir Thomas More. Shakespeare named Tyrrell as the murderer, as we all know, but he'd certainly read Sir Tom on the subject - and a lot of the play Richard III is frankly fictitious.
I wonder if Sir Tom might have been influenced by another English regicide, the Walter Tirel who, or so legend has it, did for William Rufus in the New Forest. Maybe Sir Tom figured that anyone called Tyrrell/Tirel must be a baddie - and I'm not being flippant here, as in mediaeval times much was read into a person's family name or surname. James Tyrrell was a bit of a jack-of-all-trades and a jobsworth, and must certainly have had a gilded tongue if he was able to talk himself into the favour of Henry VII, a monarch generally described as being tight-fisted and hard as nails. Personally, I don't think it's (a) ever been proven that Tyrrell was involved or (b) that Edward V was actually murdered.
The more accurate description of the scene of Richard III's defeat and death is Bosworth Battlefield, and that's how the road signs and the Battlefield Centre describe it. Bosworth Field is a bit of poesy, as in Shakespeare and others. In reality, the battlefield of Bosworth stretches across the flat Leicestershire countryside for a couple of miles in each direction. It straddles the Fenn Lanes, the old Roman Road that ran from Atherstone to Leicester and is the route of the present road to Market Bosworth. The site has changed a lot since 1485, as much of it was marshy (Richard's horse got stuck in the mud) and its early name was Redesmore, because of the proliferation of marsh-reed that grew there, and still does in part. The real intense exchange between the two sides, including artillery, was either side of Fenn Lanes just about were Fenn Lanes Farm stands today. If you get Time Team in the USA, see if you can find the episode where they're testing out mediaeval artillery, and also finding the largest haul of cannon-balls from any mediaeval European battle. See if you also find a copy (maybe online) of Glenn Foard's work Bosworth Battlefield - a Reassessment published by the UK Battlefields Trust in 2004. Worth reading.
Briefly, I am a member of a model aircraft flying club based in Nuneaton, not far away, and some years ago, thanks to a legacy from a late member, the club purchased 2-3 acres of pasture within the accepted boundaries of the Battlefield. Our flying-site still gets marshy after rain and in most winters. We get the occasional metal detectorist on our field, but of course they never say they've found anything, and usually claim not to know they're trespassing! Funnily enough, apart from a brief winter period a few years ago, I've never seen the area under really heavy snow.
Graham
We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver BlazeComment
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. AbberlineComment
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Jeff, I think I read in one of the books arguing in favour of BRH's innocence that the baby carriage in the street hold-up did not contain a baby, and that the woman was en route to shopping at the time, using the carriage to carry the large # of bank notes needed during that time of huge inflation. A small point, I realize.Comment
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Eel is derived from the Frisian "iel".Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
maybe chessie (and nessie) was a giant eel after all!
Same place as "Juwes"
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Hi Abby!
Been going through Jeremy Wade's River Monsters' episodes.
If that happened here in North Oz,my money would be on a python.(Watch it Dr Shiu )
My theory is that it was an anaconda.Perhaps an escaped one.
The bumps being the result of a degustation lunch which Chessie found disgusting,resulting in a search for a main course.
They do have big heads that often stay just above the water line.
Anyway,thanks for the story.Comment
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Deleted. And you will never know why...Sapere AudeComment
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