If you could solve any non-JTR mystery which would it be?

[gallicrow]

I read a quote somewhere that the first English monarch to learn English as their first language was either Elizabeth II, or will be Charles when he ascends the throne.

Where on earth did you read that? It's complete nonsense!

[Graham]

You think Richard pulled a Henry II, who will get rid of Beckett. I think he already had it planned out to use Tyrell. Tyrell had escorted Richard's mother-in-law Anne Beauchamp out of sanctuary 11 or 10 years before for Richard to lock up and have declared legally dead so Richard knew Tyrell and what he wouldn't or would do probably quite well by 1483. So it probably wasn't a case of whose gonna help me off my nephews and more of a case of Tyrell I have a job for you. I know from what you did in France/Wales/Scotland that you can bash kids sculls in with the best of 'em. How about earning a Knighthood.

Yet it does strike me as odd that Henry VII, once he was crowned, offered Sir James Tyrell a job as a retainer of some kind. Can't quite see the Welsh Wizard doing that if he was certain-sure that Tyrell had bumped off the Princes - had Henry done so in the knowledge that Tyrell was guilty, he would have been seen by the generality as condoning an act of child-murder. Unfortunately, in about 1502, Tyrell got himself involved in an act of treason when he gave his support to Edmund de la Pole who was an exiled Yorkist claimant to the throne. Tyrell, it seems, was biting the hand that was feeding him, so he was duly nicked and off to Tower Green and the block he went. Thomas More it was who claimed that prior to his execution Tyrell confessed to killing the Princes, but if this confession was ever written down, the document has never been found. Other commentators at the time made no mention of this claimed 'confession'. But as we know, More was profoundly anti-Richard III after Henry took the throne, even though he had said kind things about him prior to Bosworth.

Henry VII had to be a bit careful in his first year or so on the throne, as he was very well aware that Richard III had a more legitimate claim to the throne than either the Princes or Henry VII himself - who to this day is seen by some historians as a usurper.

Just to mention that Bosworth today was calm, serene and sunny. It's a lovely part of the world, and I'd strongly recommend anyone with an interest in Richard III and the Battle to take time out to visit it some time. The Battlefield Centre is magnificent, worth every penny, and there are also some very good pubs and restaurants around and about.

Graham

[Errata]

Where on earth did you read that? It's complete nonsense!

Hahaha of all the things said about a monarchy, I wouldn’t think that would rate attention. The possible key to veracity of the claim is that first language only implies what you speak at home. With most royals being multilingual it’s a miracle they didn’t end up with a Yiddish like lingual stew at the end of the day. It’s not a dig. Anyway I think the quote, or some semblance of it is in a book called Royal Babylon by Karl Shaw. I believe in reference to the Hanoverians. I’ll see if I can dig it up and give you the exact quote if you like.

[Graham]

As far as I can recall, the last British king who had diffculty with speaking and writing English was the Hanoverian George I, although I stand to be corrected on this.

Graham

[Errata]

[QUOTE=Graham;n722117]As far as I can

[APerno]

Plus - and maybe I'm the only person in the universe for whom this is a mystery - if you shuffle a pack of cards you're supposed to be amazed if they end up arranged in their suits. Why? They've got to end up somehow. Why aren't all the other arrangements amazing?

The difference between probability and odds.

[Errata]

[QUOTE=Errata;n722214]

As far as I can

Stupid phone. As far as I can tell. But German as the language at home got another boost with Victoria. I would not pick German as the language my mother cooed into my ear with, but my ear has been shaped by my mothers love of war movies.

[Semper_Eadem]

Graham,
Yeah that is a bit strange, Henry VII giving Tyrrell a Job/Pension. I wonder what Elizabeth of York, his wife thought of that later on. The Princes were her brothers after all. I think Henry just didn't know about Tyrell shenanigan's. Maybe he, as in Tyrell, explained away supporting Richard and promised Henry unwavering support. In other words, maybe he was just a fast talker.

I wonder what Bosworth looks like in the Winter. I live in the States so I have only seen it on TV. You all say Bosworth Field and I start thinking a Cornfield like in Iowa where I grew up. What you all say is a field we would call just woodland or a wood lot.

Errata,
The first Monarch to speak English was Edward III who opened Parliament in that language in 1362. I think, I could be wrong. He probably didn't speak it all the time but I bet he could when he had to.

[Sam Flynn]

The first Monarch to speak English was Edward III who opened Parliament in that language in 1362.

True, but I bet we'd struggle to understand much of what he said, predating as it did the "Great Vowel Shift".

[Graham]

Graham,
Yeah that is a bit strange, Henry VII giving Tyrrell a Job/Pension. I wonder what Elizabeth of York, his wife thought of that later on. The Princes were her brothers after all. I think Henry just didn't know about Tyrell shenanigan's. Maybe he, as in Tyrell, explained away supporting Richard and promised Henry unwavering support. In other words, maybe he was just a fast talker.

I wonder what Bosworth looks like in the Winter. I live in the States so I have only seen it on TV. You all say Bosworth Field and I start thinking a Cornfield like in Iowa where I grew up. What you all say is a field we would call just woodland or a wood lot.

Errata,
The first Monarch to speak English was Edward III who opened Parliament in that language in 1362. I think, I could be wrong. He probably didn't speak it all the time but I bet he could when he had to.

Hi SE,

it seems that the only commentator to actually name James Tyrrell as being the dispatcher of the Princes was that notorious turncoat Sir Thomas More. Shakespeare named Tyrrell as the murderer, as we all know, but he'd certainly read Sir Tom on the subject - and a lot of the play Richard III is frankly fictitious.

I wonder if Sir Tom might have been influenced by another English regicide, the Walter Tirel who, or so legend has it, did for William Rufus in the New Forest. Maybe Sir Tom figured that anyone called Tyrrell/Tirel must be a baddie - and I'm not being flippant here, as in mediaeval times much was read into a person's family name or surname. James Tyrrell was a bit of a jack-of-all-trades and a jobsworth, and must certainly have had a gilded tongue if he was able to talk himself into the favour of Henry VII, a monarch generally described as being tight-fisted and hard as nails. Personally, I don't think it's (a) ever been proven that Tyrrell was involved or (b) that Edward V was actually murdered.

The more accurate description of the scene of Richard III's defeat and death is Bosworth Battlefield, and that's how the road signs and the Battlefield Centre describe it. Bosworth Field is a bit of poesy, as in Shakespeare and others. In reality, the battlefield of Bosworth stretches across the flat Leicestershire countryside for a couple of miles in each direction. It straddles the Fenn Lanes, the old Roman Road that ran from Atherstone to Leicester and is the route of the present road to Market Bosworth. The site has changed a lot since 1485, as much of it was marshy (Richard's horse got stuck in the mud) and its early name was Redesmore, because of the proliferation of marsh-reed that grew there, and still does in part. The real intense exchange between the two sides, including artillery, was either side of Fenn Lanes just about were Fenn Lanes Farm stands today. If you get Time Team in the USA, see if you can find the episode where they're testing out mediaeval artillery, and also finding the largest haul of cannon-balls from any mediaeval European battle. See if you also find a copy (maybe online) of Glenn Foard's work Bosworth Battlefield - a Reassessment published by the UK Battlefields Trust in 2004. Worth reading.

Briefly, I am a member of a model aircraft flying club based in Nuneaton, not far away, and some years ago, thanks to a legacy from a late member, the club purchased 2-3 acres of pasture within the accepted boundaries of the Battlefield. Our flying-site still gets marshy after rain and in most winters. We get the occasional metal detectorist on our field, but of course they never say they've found anything, and usually claim not to know they're trespassing! Funnily enough, apart from a brief winter period a few years ago, I've never seen the area under really heavy snow.

Graham

[Abby Normal]

Was it Chessie!?!

One of the greatest mysteries has a personal touch for me. Its what was in the Chesapeake bay where I grew up in the early 80's?!? Around 1982-83 time frame there were a lot of sightings of a sea creature. serpent like thing.

My mom saw it. she was at our neighborhood dock with a friend late afternoon. people were coming back from sail boating a lot of people around. suddenly they saw a creature swimming toward the dock. It was described by both my mom and my friend as follows: snake/serpent/eel like about thirty feet long, dark brown, small humps on back, head the size of a horses, but more oval-- swimming on the surface, like a water snake, undulating side to side. as it approached the dock people started pointing and shouting about it which apparently scared itand it dove under water. My mom said it got to about ten feet away from the dock-very close-so much so that she said she got scared it was so close-so she got a good look at it. a few moments later it appeared again swimming away but this time it was going up and down in the water, undulating vertically!!. then it went under again and that was it. My mom, her friend and other people on the dock were all talking about it excited and shocked at what they just saw-"did you see that?" "what was that?" that sort of thing.

there was a slew of other sightings around the time and in the news a lot and was named Chessie (after Nessie of course). The most famous sighting was videotaped by a family and that video became famous it was shown all over the news. Eventually it was analyzed by experts from the Smithsonian and there conclusion was: approx. 30-40 feet long, swimming on its own (against current) biological in origin but unknown.

My Mom was even interviewed for a big story in Chesapeake Bay Magazine on "Chessie"-I still have the issue.

I believe her she saw something (half my family dosnt). If it wasn't for all these other sightings and in the news I might be less inclined to believe her. But her friend confirmed, as did one of my neighbors who was on the dock and saw it too.

so what the heck was it?

I know a bit about biology/nature/animals and best I can come up with is that somehow an Anaconda got up here from the amazon somehow and was in the bay for a while. Eventhough they are large water loving snakes they are green and have spots-very distinctive looking. and they definitely don't have bumps on there back or swim vertically in the water! my mom was adamant it wasn't an anaconda-or any kind of snake for that matter. to this day she thinks she saw some kind of unknown sea serpent.

so other than a large snake the only other thing I can think of is that maybe it was some kind of rare sea snake/eel creature that was possibly the last members of its kind (maybe now extinct?) that only came up, for migrating, breeding rarely and is now died out. I don't know-it drives me nuts to this day.

what say you?

maybe chessie (and nessie) was a giant eel after all!

https://www.foxnews.com/science/loch-ness-monster-giant-eel-theory

[Elizabeth]

Jeff, I think I read in one of the books arguing in favour of BRH's innocence that the baby carriage in the street hold-up did not contain a baby, and that the woman was en route to shopping at the time, using the carriage to carry the large # of bank notes needed during that time of huge inflation. A small point, I realize.

[DJA]

maybe chessie (and nessie) was a giant eel after all!

https://www.foxnews.com/science/loch-ness-monster-giant-eel-theory

Eel is derived from the Frisian "iel".

Same place as "Juwes"

[DJA]

Hi Abby!

Been going through Jeremy Wade's River Monsters' episodes.

If that happened here in North Oz,my money would be on a python.(Watch it Dr Shiu )

My theory is that it was an anaconda.Perhaps an escaped one.
The bumps being the result of a degustation lunch which Chessie found disgusting,resulting in a search for a main course.
They do have big heads that often stay just above the water line.

Anyway,thanks for the story.

[mpriestnall]

Deleted. And you will never know why...