If you could solve any non-JTR mystery which would it be?

[Abby Normal]

The Hinterkaifeck murders are one of the creepiest cases that won't ever be solved.

It was thought that the daughter's husband, who presumably died during WW1, may have returned and slain the family because he found out about the incestuous relationship between his wife and his father-in-law. An interesting theory but I think it might have just been random nutjob(s) who were travelling through the village.

it must have been more than one person no? or the adult male killed first? but still you would think they would fight back or run away if it was only one person.

but this is an example if you have a home invasion more than likely they are going to kill you. yes someone robs you outside somewhere you give them your wallet car keys etc. but in your house-don't fall for it. oh yes im just going to tie you all up while I rob you. BS. fight scream run like hell.

[Semper_Eadem]

Re: The Princes In The Tower, as an enthusiastic Plantagenet I have always doubted the Shakespearean finger of guilt that points at Richard III. I have also for some time been attracted to the theory that the younger of the two Princes, Edward Duke of York, survived whatever plot was hatched to get rid of him and his brother, and reappeared after a long absence in Ireland. If this youth, who called himself Perkin Warbeck, really was, as was claimed, the brother of the uncrowned Richard IV who disappeared and therefore the rightful King, it has never been proven and probably never will be. It's a long and complex story, but well worth reading up. Suffice to say that Henry VII took considerable interest in Edward, who ended up on the scaffold following his taking part in an unsuccessful rebellion against Henry.

The ultimate Cold Case.

Graham

Howdy Graham,

I'm at the other end of the spectrum in that I believe Richard III did murder his nephews. I don't think he was a complete rotter but he could get down and dirty when he had to.

It was Richard, Duke of York; who supposedly escaped the Tower. As for Perkin Warbeck, I think he was just a good fibber. Most sources from the day imply that he didn't even know English which is really strange if he was Richard Duke of York. How ever most sources are Tudor sources so...

I know it is the fashion now days for people to think Richard III was wronged by Tudor propaganda but Professor Michael Hicks and Alison Weir among others have made a pretty good case for Richard having Murdered his nephews.

Richard III did pass a lot of laws to benefit his people but he had to do something to gain popularity as he was very unpopular with most of his subjects due to how he had usurped the throne and imprisoned his supposedly illegitimated Nephews. Which he did by impugning his brother King Edward marriage. I have to say here that King Edward Marriage to Elizabeth Wideville Grey caused no end of trouble for him and his family. I hope she was worth it.

Back to King Richard III.. A lot of facts still show through the whitewash on Richard III, who has got to be the original tricky Dick. I could go on all day. What purpose would it serve though. Most folks are going to believe what they want.

I just wish they would allow DNA testing of the bones found in 1674 in the reign of Charles II. That would go a long way to solving the Mystery once and for all.

[Semper_Eadem]

My mother swears we are Plantagenets, and I would love to believe that, but the genealogy goes to hell in the 16th century.

on a cold case level, I often wonder how long the first Homo sapiens had to reproduce across species lines before there were enough Homo sapiens to create an exclusive breeding pool. And I asked my eighth grade science teacher, and she sent me home for the day.

Actually given how those Kings back then liked to have their way with the serf wenches there are probably more Plantagenets still kicking around then you would think. Henry I had 20 illegitimate kids. I know I don't have any of Plantagenet blood as my family is from Cumbria and we have been in the USA since at least 1700 on my Dads side. Moms side is every northern European country besides England. So no Plantagenet unless longshanks got randy when he was lessoning the Scots in how he was going to gobble up Scotland like he did Wales.

[Harry D]

it must have been more than one person no? or the adult male killed first? but still you would think they would fight back or run away if it was only one person.

but this is an example if you have a home invasion more than likely they are going to kill you. yes someone robs you outside somewhere you give them your wallet car keys etc. but in your house-don't fall for it. oh yes im just going to tie you all up while I rob you. BS. fight scream run like hell.

Yup, it could certainly have been more than one perpetrator. There's evidence they were living at the farm for awhile after the murders. That's why I tend to think it was a transient.

What's interesting is that some of the victims appeared to have been lured one by one into the barn.

[Sam Flynn]

Henry I had 20 illegitimate kids.

Not so much Plantagenet as "plant-a-gene".

[Abby Normal]

Yup, it could certainly have been more than one perpetrator. There's evidence they were living at the farm for awhile after the murders. That's why I tend to think it was a transient.

What's interesting is that some of the victims appeared to have been lured one by one into the barn.

yup all that points to more than one person IMHO

[Semper_Eadem]

Not so much Plantagenet as "plant-a-gene".

Yeah that is a pretty fair assessment. Alas it didn't seem to help out Henry I daughter the Empress Matilda when she tried to ascend the English throne.

[Graham]

I haven't been around the boards for a while, so need to catch up. I'm not saying that Dickon was snow-white - no late mediaeval ruler anywhere in Europe was. But I rather feel that with the Princes there was a touch of 'who will rid me of these turbulent brats?' uttered by Richard when he was in a bad mood, and overheard by his-then great pal the Duke of Buckingham. Richard most certainly wanted the Throne, and not as Uncle Regent either, but I still can't quite see him as committing one the most evil crimes - if it was actually committed - in English history. But they were desperate times and the world as they knew it was ruled by desperate men, so one never knows.

I'd also add the comment that most high-born children back then taught French, and taught in French, from an early age, and if Warbeck's claim is true that he was spirited away to France at an early age, then I think it quite understandable that his English wasn't so hot.

I think I recall reading that the two skellies found under the staircase in the Tower in the mid-17th century were considered too small to belong to the Princes in The Tower. But you're right, SE, DNA testing would be very appropriate - if the bones still exist. It is interesting that Richard's maternal bloodline still exists, and DNA was taken from a female descendant prior to the excavation in the Leicester car-park, in case his remains were found. Which they were, of course.

I rather think that this mystery will go in the box along with the Lindbergh Case and the Ripper, for examples, as never proven and now highly unlikely to be proven.

Graham

[Abby Normal]

I haven't been around the boards for a while, so need to catch up. I'm not saying that Dickon was snow-white - no late mediaeval ruler anywhere in Europe was. But I rather feel that with the Princes there was a touch of 'who will rid me of these turbulent brats?' uttered by Richard when he was in a bad mood, and overheard by his-then great pal the Duke of Buckingham. Richard most certainly wanted the Throne, and not as Uncle Regent either, but I still can't quite see him as committing one the most evil crimes - if it was actually committed - in English history. But they were desperate times and the world as they knew it was ruled by desperate men, so one never knows.

I'd also add the comment that most high-born children back then taught French, and taught in French, from an early age, and if Warbeck's claim is true that he was spirited away to France at an early age, then I think it quite understandable that his English wasn't so hot.

I think I recall reading that the two skellies found under the staircase in the Tower in the mid-17th century were considered too small to belong to the Princes in The Tower. But you're right, SE, DNA testing would be very appropriate - if the bones still exist. It is interesting that Richard's maternal bloodline still exists, and DNA was taken from a female descendant prior to the excavation in the Leicester car-park, in case his remains were found. Which they were, of course.

I rather think that this mystery will go in the box along with the Lindbergh Case and the Ripper, for examples, as never proven and now highly unlikely to be proven.

Graham

hi graham
Lindberg case isn't really much of a mystery is it? Hauptman did it and the bumbling fool dropped the baby as he was attempting to carry out the window and down the ladder and it hit its head and died. realizing a dead baby would be of no use now he got rid of it while escaping near the side of the road not too far from the lindberh house. but he later still tried to collect the ransom and was eventually caught.

[Graham]

hi graham
Lindberg case isn't really much of a mystery is it? Hauptman did it and the bumbling fool dropped the baby as he was attempting to carry out the window and down the ladder and it hit its head and died. realizing a dead baby would be of no use now he got rid of it while escaping near the side of the road not too far from the lindberh house. but he later still tried to collect the ransom and was eventually caught.

Don't think it's so simple as that. For a start, there was always some doubt as to the identity of the child's corpse that the truck-driver found when he stopped for a pee. Seems that near to the Lindbergh's house was a home for orphaned kids, and there had been cases of the kids wandering off from time to time. And then, of course, was Lindbergh's reputation as a practical joker, who had previously alarmed the household by suddenly saying that Charles Jnr was nowhere to be found. But I do accept that Hauptmann was involved, otherwise how did he come by the gold certificate bills found in his house, and those for which he paid for gas? OK, it seemed that the police found John Condon's telephone number written in a closet at Hauptmann's house, but many commentators, including Ludovic Kennedy, were convinced that this was a police plant. And IIRC, it was never proven beyond doubt that the timber used to make the ladder came from Hauptmann's house. And where were Hauptmann's fingerprints? Not on the ladder, the gold certificates, in the child's bedroom, or on any of the ransom notes. And what about the mysterious Isidore Fisch, who conveniently died shortly after he legged it back to Germany?

My own feeling is that the rather odd Dr John Condon screwed things up, with the starnge-to-explain agreement of Lindbergh himself. Condon seemed to push himself into the case, and for reasons I don't think have ever been explained Lindbergh allowed him to.

There is also the fact the J Edgar Hoover, not noted for his liberality of mind, was unhappy about the way the police conducted their investigation.

There is much more to this crime than just a German immigrant kidnapping a celebrity's child for profit. Whether the whole truth will ever be known at this remove, I doubt. But you never know......

Graham

[Graham]

It was Richard, Duke of York; who supposedly escaped the Tower

Don't know what made me write 'Edward' instead of 'Richard'.....red wine, possibly.

Graham

[Abby Normal]

Don't think it's so simple as that. For a start, there was always some doubt as to the identity of the child's corpse that the truck-driver found when he stopped for a pee. Seems that near to the Lindbergh's house was a home for orphaned kids, and there had been cases of the kids wandering off from time to time. And then, of course, was Lindbergh's reputation as a practical joker, who had previously alarmed the household by suddenly saying that Charles Jnr was nowhere to be found. But I do accept that Hauptmann was involved, otherwise how did he come by the gold certificate bills found in his house, and those for which he paid for gas? OK, it seemed that the police found John Condon's telephone number written in a closet at Hauptmann's house, but many commentators, including Ludovic Kennedy, were convinced that this was a police plant. And IIRC, it was never proven beyond doubt that the timber used to make the ladder came from Hauptmann's house. And where were Hauptmann's fingerprints? Not on the ladder, the gold certificates, in the child's bedroom, or on any of the ransom notes. And what about the mysterious Isidore Fisch, who conveniently died shortly after he legged it back to Germany?

My own feeling is that the rather odd Dr John Condon screwed things up, with the starnge-to-explain agreement of Lindbergh himself. Condon seemed to push himself into the case, and for reasons I don't think have ever been explained Lindbergh allowed him to.

There is also the fact the J Edgar Hoover, not noted for his liberality of mind, was unhappy about the way the police conducted their investigation.

There is much more to this crime than just a German immigrant kidnapping a celebrity's child for profit. Whether the whole truth will ever be known at this remove, I doubt. But you never know......

Graham

hi graham
thanks. imho the only thing more to this case is if there was any kind of inside job involved. like someone close to tje lindberghs like a housekeeper or something. someone to tell hauptman where the babys

room was that sort of thing. i think theres a chance there was and that the housekeeper who committed suicide might have been it. if not her then maybe someone like her.

it has an eery ring to the ramsey case. where i think the housekeeper may have been involved also.

[Semper_Eadem]

I haven't been around the boards for a while, so need to catch up. I'm not saying that Dickon was snow-white - no late mediaeval ruler anywhere in Europe was. But I rather feel that with the Princes there was a touch of 'who will rid me of these turbulent brats?' uttered by Richard when he was in a bad mood, and overheard by his-then great pal the Duke of Buckingham. Richard most certainly wanted the Throne, and not as Uncle Regent either, but I still can't quite see him as committing one the most evil crimes - if it was actually committed - in English history. But they were desperate times and the world as they knew it was ruled by desperate men, so one never knows.

I'd also add the comment that most high-born children back then taught French, and taught in French, from an early age, and if Warbeck's claim is true that he was spirited away to France at an early age, then I think it quite understandable that his English wasn't so hot.

I think I recall reading that the two skellies found under the staircase in the Tower in the mid-17th century were considered too small to belong to the Princes in The Tower. But you're right, SE, DNA testing would be very appropriate - if the bones still exist. It is interesting that Richard's maternal bloodline still exists, and DNA was taken from a female descendant prior to the excavation in the Leicester car-park, in case his remains were found. Which they were, of course.

I rather think that this mystery will go in the box along with the Lindbergh Case and the Ripper, for examples, as never proven and now highly unlikely to be proven.

Graham

Sorry I am so late in replying.

You think Richard pulled a Henry II, who will get rid of Beckett. I think he already had it planned out to use Tyrell. Tyrell had escorted Richard's mother-in-law Anne Beauchamp out of sanctuary 11 or 10 years before for Richard to lock up and have declared legally dead so Richard knew Tyrell and what he wouldn't or would do probably quite well by 1483. So it probably wasn't a case of whose gonna help me off my nephews and more of a case of Tyrell I have a job for you. I know from what you did in France/Wales/Scotland that you can bash kids sculls in with the best of 'em. How about earning a Knighthood.

Regarding Warbeck's English or lack there of. Yes. while the Nobility where taught in French they also usually spoke English for Parliament and had since 1362. They probably would of learned or started learning English at their Nurses knee as tots. They also had to write in English. I think Warbeck was taken up by the Earl of Kildare and things just ended up escalating.

We probably are never going to know. But doing genetic tests on those bones buried at Westminster Abbey would probably shed some light on the mystery. At least we would know if they are indeed who people say they are. However given how people were taking those said bones back in 1674 for souvenirs when they were first discovered and replacing what they took with animal bones then perhaps it is a moot point.

Anyways I feel like I am splitting hairs. It is nice though to talk to another Medievalist/Plantagenetist...

[Errata]

I'd also add the comment that most high-born children back then taught French, and taught in French, from an early age, and if Warbeck's claim is true that he was spirited away to France at an early age, then I think it quite understandable that his English wasn't so hot.

I read a quote somewhere that the first English monarch to learn English as their first language was either Elizabeth II, or will be Charles when he ascends the throne. It all depends on what you think won out in Elizabeth’s childhood. Her mother’s will or her father’s family pride. Otherwise it’s German back to the Stuart’s, at which point it’s French back to the Vikings. I can’t imagine why a royal child needed to learn. I’m not sure knowledge of English wouldn’t be downright suspect.

[Graham]

Good posts, guys. Will respond later. For the time being today, I'm off for a quiet walk around - guess where? Bosworth Battlefield!

Graham