JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Fiver]

They didn't. The shooting of JD Tippit was not even disguised as a felon fleeing justice: it was a cold-blooded execution intending to silence a man for good. Whether Tippit was up so something at the time- his actions suggest he was- or whether his experienced eye just spotted someone he didn't think looked right I am not sure. But I cannot see his murder was planned beforehand.

If Tippit was executed for knowing too much, then the Dallas police must have falsified the forensics evidence to pin the blame on Oswald.

Why would the Dallas Police agree to a plan that involved the unnecessary murder of one of their own men?

[Fiver]

I'm sure that was considered, as was an attempt at the Trade Mart itself where the bulk of the security detail had been allocated. The TSBD had the advantage of surprise, concealment and offered a better chance of escape, as events proved. There was no return fire from the security detail and the gunman/gunmen were able to escape the building.

Any location offered surprise. Both Ft Worth and the TSBD offered better concealment and chance of escape than the Grassy Knoll. Ft Worth offered a more exposed, unmoving target with clearer fields of fire and a much longer time to aim a first shot.

So why would a competent Conspiracy choose Dealey Plaza over Ft Worth?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Your position requires that the over a dozen witnesses who saw Oswald shoot Tippit or flee the scene are liars. Your position requires everyone who saw Oswald attempt to use his gun are liars. Your position requires that the Dallas police fake the evidence. Your position requires that all forensics experts brought in as well as most of every committee that examined the Tippit killing are liars.

So you're calling at least 60 people liars.

Against that we have the Clemmons, Wright, and Holan stories which contradict each other on every point yet you believe all three of them to be true.

And yet he goes up in arms when it’s simply suggested that less than a quarter of that number at Parkland were simply mistaken. There’s no sense of balance Fiver. It appears that one side has a stringent set of qualifying rules applied to it whilst the other side can simply say anything and they believe that it should simply be accepted.

[Fiver]

The two Secret Servicemen in the car, one of them the driver, had to make vital decisions. Both, however, did have interesting comments on the shots. Agent Kellerman said later that the last sound he recalled was "like a double bang — bang! bang! ... like a plane going through the sound barrier." Agent Greer, the driver, also said the last shot cracked out "just right behind" its predecessor. This could conceivably mean the two agents heard a single bullet breaking the sound barrier, but It also suggests they heard two shots very close together indeed — far closer together than one man could achieve with a bolt-operated rifle. Agent Kellerman later expressed the opinion, based on what he heard and the wounds he saw later at the autopsy, that "there have got to be more than three shots."

Greer is more vauge than your source implies.

Mr. SPECTER. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the time of the third noise?
Mr. GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were between the two. I couldn't really say.

But it is clear that Greer and Kellerman thought the last two of the three shots came very close together. There are other witnesses that support that, but there are also witnesses that disagree.

[Fiver]

If Governor Connally was not hit by the same first bullet to hit the President, then the Government's case is destroyed.

Connally thought that the first bullet struck JFK in the neck, the second struck Connally in the back, and the third struck JFK in the head, but he also believed that there were only three shots, all fired by Oswald from the TSBD.

[Fiver]

With the first coming from Badge Man behind the retaining wall

The "Badge Man" was a pop bottle sitting on the retaining wall.

, the second head shot may have come from behind the picket fence,

"Standing behind the picket fence, it is . . . apparent that if the shot were from the front, then it couldn't have originated behind the fence: the fence is at a 90 degree angle to Kennedy's head -- tilted 34 degrees left of center when hit -- at the time the President was struck. A virtual broadside hit. Such a shot would not have forced JFK's head forward or backward, but side to side, with the bullet exiting near Kennedy's left ear, hitting Jackie. Of course, none of this happened." - Guy Russo, pro-conspiracy consultant for Oliver Stone's JFK.

or perhaps from the Dal Tex Building behind the president's position and catercorner to the School
Book Depository at the end of Elm Street.

The Daltex building is the only suggested secondary firing position that doesn't contradict the evidence.

An image of a man photographed in a second-floor window of the Dal-Tex Building seems to show him holding some kind of straight-lined object out the window. –P.549 Into the Nightmare.

The photograph shows multiple people in the 2nd floor window of the Daltex building, none of them holding a rifle.

[FrankO]

Lets just say, ill take her memory over the Zfilm that was conveniently used and fitted to support the warren commission findings . Tell me , what year was the film released to the public?

This is already a much better reply, thanks, although I don’t get why, if you take Mrs. Connally’s memory over the film, you claim the film you distrust confirms anything she said?

I have to admit that the reason behind the film being released only a number of years after the event might be nefarious, but it may equally just have to do with the gruesome nature of the film & the possible effect it might have on the public – which it had.

Then, I’m assuming that by the fitting of the film you mean that it, at least, edited out the wound to the back of the president’s head. But why would they leave in that Connally kept holding his hat until at least frame 279 and then, again, from at least frame 320 to frame 330, after the head shot?

Don’t you agree that it would have been much better to edit that out as well while they were at it? Then it could at least fit easily with the statements by the Connally’s. Or, better yet, why didn’t they add some blood to his right hand? That would be less work and more effective for what they needed. Then it would be clear that Connally was shot before frame 228, the frame in which his right hand is to be seen for the first time.

[Fiver]

"And I saw a puff of smoke come out from that corner and it didn't just hang there but it slowly drifted out under the trees and over the grassy area toward the street below."

The smoke, he added, traveled out about twenty feet from the fence and was located slightly behind a large tree on the knoll. Holland said he had been shown private and unpublished pictures that "confirm the presence of smoke coming from the knoll." He refused to discuss that tidbit further.

Unless the shooter was using ammunition made before the 1884 invention of smokeless powder, it could not have produced that much smoke.

The claim about smoke is also shown to be false by the Orville Nix film.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

Just to be absolutely clear, you are suggesting, as am I, that Connally's injuries could not have been caused by one bullet?

Best regards, George

Hi George,

Sorry that I wasn't clearer, but that isn't what I'm suggesting. Fishy claims that the Zapruder film confirms that the governor wasn't hit before frame 230, just as Connally stated. If that were true, then I wonder how he was still able to be holding onto his hat until (relatively) much later. So, based on the Zapruder film, I conclude that Connally was either hit when he was first reacting/moving (i.e. at frame 224/225 or so) by one bullet that caused all of his wounds or he was hit in the back at at frame 224/225 or so and in the wrist at some later point. But, as I've said before, I remain unconvinced of a later point as there's no clear reaction to be seen from governor Connally. Or, at least, I honestly don't see it.

Cheers,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

How can it be said that the forensics show a shot from the Knoll??

The forensics is the autopsy which clearly stated that the shots came from the rear. Backed up by the photographs. Backed up by the x-rays. Backed up by the Zapruder film. Backed up by the 14 other pathologists who agreed 100% with the conclusions of Humes, Boswell and Finck.

With absolute certainty there were no shots from anywhere but the 6th floor of the TSBD. Everything points to that. Arguments about fakes and forgery are invalid and cannot be accepted in any adult conversation. It really would be nice to have a conversation without this childish talk of fake and forgery. Nothing was faked, nothing was forged, nothing was tampered with.

Take away the silliness and the conspiracy side are left with a sack full of nothing.

[cobalt]

Why would the Dallas Police agree to a plan that involved the unnecessary murder of one of their own men?

If you took the time to read my response you would not need to post the same question again. I made it clear that IMO the killing of Tippit was not premeditated. The word 'unnecessary' is your own imagined CT theory of the killing, not mine. It was clearly very necessary to kill Tippit- not just shoot him- in someone's opinion that afternoon at that time.

If Tippit was executed for knowing too much, then the Dallas police must have falsified the forensics evidence to pin the blame on Oswald.

I never suggested that Tippit was killed for knowing too much. We don't know why he decided to stop his patrol car. Unfortunately, it seems that Tippit may have been killed because he did not know enough about what was going on.

Any location offered surprise. Both Ft Worth and the TSBD offered better concealment and chance of escape than the Grassy Knoll. Ft Worth offered a more exposed, unmoving target with clearer fields of fire and a much longer time to aim a first shot.

Shooting from inside a high rise building, or from behind a fence, offered more concealment than anything on offer at the other two locations, Ft. Worth and the Trade Mart. Both the latter two were obvious 'hotspots' where the Security Detail would be on their mettle. By the time the motorcade was heading for the Stemmons Freeway crowds had thinned and any threat in the minds of the security men would be nearer to amber alert rather than red alert.

So why would a competent Conspiracy choose Dealey Plaza over Ft Worth?

Because it worked? Same as Ali chose a highly 'incompetent' tactic to defeat Foreman in Zaire.

[Patrick Differ]

Hi Fishy,

Compliments on your post # 3864.

For many years I believed that the fatal head shot originated from the grassy knoll. However, when I reviewed the evidence presented by Sherry Fiester, that all the injures to JFK's head were confined to the right hand side, I realised that, while there were shot(s) from the grassy knoll, none of them were incident upon the president's head. The angles just don't add up for that conclusion. I am now persuaded that the fatal head shot originated from the south knoll, and that there was an almost simultaneous shot from behind. This may have been from the TSBD, or from the Daltex building. The shallow wound in the President's back was, I believe, intended to be so in order to tie that wound to the Carcano. This round would have been hand loaded using a reduced charge and fired through a 30 calibre rifle utilising a sabot, and probably came from the Records Building rooftop where a cartridge case was found some years later.

It seems that while we are in general agreement, there is some room for differences.

Cheers, George

Having actually been to Dealy Plaza and actually stood in these spots what struck me the most were the angles and distances. As a recreational gun user with a .22 rifle with scope ( FBI registered) I would classify these shots as " professional ". These were not unprofessional shots by any stretch of any imagination. Even with a misaligned scope the head shot was not random. You would expect randomness in this case with Oswald because 1) he was out of practice with a rifle ( you don't just pick up a rifle and fire it...especially at a President. And there is no proof he practiced). 2) The Carcano firing a 6.5 mm round would have kicked adding to the complication of precision and timing. But the government will have you believe...anyone could make those shots with a scope. Even with randomness as a factor. Even by someone who at best achieved Marksmanship over 5 years earlier when practice was daily.

The spot Zapruder stood was an almost perfect vantage point except for the street sign. It can be used However to assist in angles and distances based on its specifications. We see it's use in frame by frame analysis but also see it's controversy of the when. When was Connally hit in relation to the frames?

The Plaza is a perfect kill zone so this Fact only adds to the problem of trust in any search for how it was done and whether Kennedy was professionally assassinated. Why did the motorcade go down Elm and just head straight fo the Freeway and Trade Mart. All issues that became legitimate questions. The answer became obvious in a classic Crossfire arrangement in Daltek, Book Depository and Grassy Knoll. Or at least it became an obvious point of any conspiracy theory of who. Who benefited? That answer became obvious- LBJ, Hoover, CIA, MOB and the Companies who feed the Military Industrial Complex.

The grassy knoll distance to target and angle to target ( Frame 313) is roughly around 60 feet. However the car was moving so the head would be a moving target in any case of firing position and angle. Frame 313 shows an explosion in the right temple as the head moves back and to the left in less than 1 second by frames. Having stood behind the fence where Lee Bowers saw 2 men at the time, it aligns easily with Frane 313
This Fact adds to the lack of trust in the WC.

The other angle would be from a perch on the 6th floor to Kennedys head and back/throat exit to Connally for a total of 7 entrances and 7 exits, including bone but somehow comes out pristine. Unlike the same jacketed bullet that hits the head that fragments into pieces no larger than a quarter of an inch and most 1 or 2 millimeters in size.

You can perhaps understand the doubt. Especially when Humes decided not to trace the path of the bullet from Kennedys back through his neck. As a result there was a need to explain Connallys wounds and hence the Single Bullet was born. Reasonable doubt was a result.

The Warren Commission Autopsy failures resulted in the endless Conspiracy theories. Zapruder frame 313 eerily matches an easy shot from the grassy knoll. Could Oswald make those shots in 4.8 seconds, was Connally hit with another shot, etc. etc.....

The folks who used technology to do laser scans and continue to advance the technologies do not support the Single Bullet theory based on the shooting angles. This challenge appeared in the Jim Garrison appeal on January 31, 1969. The laser scans support this appeal challenge. The alternative is Arlen Specters own theory Trying to prove it after the fact. Which one is right?

There is plenty of reasonable doubt in this case. The Warren Commission did not satisfy it and only fueled the doubt. The 60s were a turbulent time and created PTSD for many American citizens who lived it. Its not a joke.

Technology may still play a roll in this case.

[Fiver]

Yet we have a ''witness'' who confirmed what Clemons saw!!! 'two men running in opposite directions ' , so i guess your argument void.

Clemons had two men running away.
Wright and Holan both had one man running away.

Clemons, Wright, and Holan disagreed on
* How many people they saw.
* What those people looked like.
* How those people were dressed.
* What those people said.
* What those people did.
* How those people left the scene.
* What direction those people left the scene.

Yet you believe all three of these contradictory accounts.

[Fiver]

Even Dr Humes didn't believe that CE399 caused the wounds in JFK and Connally.

Mr. SPECTER - "Dr. Humes, under your opinion which you have just given us, what effect, if any, would that have on whether this bullet, 399, could have been the one to lodge in Governor Connally's thigh?"

Commander HUMES - " I think that extremely unlikely. The reports, again Exhibit 392 from Parkland, tell of an entrance wound on the lower midthigh of the Governor, and X-rays taken there are described as showing metallic fragments in the bone, which apparently by this report were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally's thigh. I can't conceive of where they came from this missile."

Isn't this the same Dr Humes that you accuse of lying about JFK's head and neck wounds? But now he's an expert on ballistics and on wounds he only saw in photos?

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Sorry that I wasn't clearer, but that isn't what I'm suggesting. Fishy claims that the Zapruder film confirms that the governor wasn't hit before frame 230, just as Connally stated. If that were true, then I wonder how he was still able to be holding onto his hat until (relatively) much later. So, based on the Zapruder film, I conclude that Connally was either hit when he was first reacting/moving (i.e. at frame 224/225 or so) by one bullet that caused all of his wounds or he was hit in the back at at frame 224/225 or so and in the wrist at some later point. But, as I've said before, I remain unconvinced of a later point as there's no clear reaction to be seen from governor Connally. Or, at least, I honestly don't see it.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

I'm not referring to timings. You pointed out that the hat was held at shoulder level. How can a descending shot through the back and out the front at about 15cm below the nipple manage to then hit the back of the wrist at shoulder level?

Cheers, George