JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Fiver]

Which is more credible:
The CIA made a mistake
Fiver makes a mistake

Again, when you can't refute me, you attempt an insult.

The CIA was taking pictures of everyone going into and out of the Soviet Embassy. The picture is not Oswald.

Which is more credible:
* Some bureaucrat sent the wrong photo.
* A Conspiracy of hundreds that was able to provide an Oswald look-alike for the JFK and Tippit shootings didn't send him to Mexico.

[FISHY1118]

You have accused dozens of people of having lied.

I have not accused Connally or his wife of lying.

You have to if you support a lone shooter .

Connally believed there were only three shots fired, all from behind him, none from the Grassy Knoll.



As did many people did due the the last TSBD shot and the fatal head shot were almost simutaniously .



If your source says differently, your source is lying to you.

Representative BOGGS. This is a little bit off the subject, but it is pretty well established that the Governor was shot and he has recovered. Do you have any reason to believe there was any conspiracy afoot for somebody to assassinate you?
Governor CONNALLY. None whatever.

Not Relevant at all .


Representative BOGGS. Have you ever had any belief of, subsequent to the assassination of President Kennedy and your own injury, that there was a conspiracy here of any kind?
Governor CONNALLY. None whatever.

Again, not relevant to his statement of a different bullet hitting him, as no one before or right after would have thought about a conspiracy to kill the President .


Representative BOGGS. What is your theory about what happened?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, it is pure theory based on nothing more than what information is available to everyone, and probably less is available to me, certainly less than is available to you here on this Commission.
But I think you had an individual here with a completely warped, demented mind who, for whatever reason, wanted to do two things: First, to vent his anger, his hate, against many people and many things in a dramatic fashion that would carve for him, in however infamous a fashion, a niche in the history books of this country. And I think he deliberately set out to do just what he did, and that is the only thing that I can think of.

Mr. DULLES. You recall your correspondence with Oswald in connection with Marine matters, when he thought you were still Secretary of the Navy?
Governor CONNALLY. After this was all over, I do, Mr. Dulles. As I recall, he wrote me a letter asking that his dishonorable discharge be corrected. But at the time he wrote the letter, if he had any reason about it at all, or shortly thereafter, he would have recognized that I had resigned as Secretary of the Navy a month before I got the letter, so it would really take a peculiar mind, it seems to me, to harbor any grudge as a result of that when I had resigned as Secretary prior to the receipt of the letter.
Mr. DULLES. I think I can say without violating any confidence, that there is nothing in the record to indicate that there was--in fact, Marina, the wife, testified, in fact, to the contrary. There was no animus against you on the part of Oswald, as you----
Governor CONNALLY. I have wondered, of course, in my own mind as to whether or not there could have conceivably been anything, and the only--I suppose like any person at that particular moment, I represented authority to him. Perhaps he was in a rebellious spirit enough to where I was as much a target as anyone else. But that is the only conceivable basis on which I can assume that he was deliberately trying to hit me.
Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about the fact that he was deliberately trying to hit you?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, I do; I do have doubt, Congressman. I am not at all sure he was shooting at me. I think I could with some logic argue either way. The logic in favor of him, of the position that he was shooting at me, is simply borne out by the fact that the man fired three shots, and he hit each of the three times he fired. He obviously was a pretty good marksman, so you have to assume to some extent at least that he was hitting what he was shooting at.
On the other hand, I think I could argue with equal logic that obviously his prime target, and I think really his sole target, was President Kennedy. His first shot, at least to him, he could not have but known the effect that it might have on the President. His second shot showed that he had clearly missed the President, and his result to him, as the result of the first shot, the President slumped and changed his position in the back seat just enough to expose my back. I haven't seen all of the various positions, but again I think from where he was shooting I was in the direct line of fire immediately in front of the President, so any movement on the part of the President would expose me.

Governor CONNALLY. I am not aware of any shots from the overpass, Senator. Senator, I might repeat my testimony with emphasis to this extent, that I have all my life been familiar with the sound of a rifleshot, and the sound I heard I thought was a rifleshot, at the time I heard it I didn't think it was a firecracker, or blowout or anything else. I thought it was a rifleshot. I have hunted enough to think that my perception with respect to directions is very, very good, and [B]this shot I heard came from back over my right shoulder, which was in the direction of the School Book Depository, no question about it. I heard no other.


[QUOTE]

The first and third shots came from there.


His correct they did . The 4th shot came from the front and blew the back of JFKs head out.

[FISHY1118]

If James Tague was struck by a fourth bullet, that would prove a second gunman, a man so utterly inept that he only got off one shot and missed everything.Your miss reading again , James Tague was wounded as a result of 1x bullet, 1x bullet back and throat of jfk , 1 bullet Connally wounds .The second gunman was deadly accurate with his one and only fatal head shot .


Tague thought he was hit by the second bullet. Where is your evidence that Tague was struck by a fourth bullet?



Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on the Hertz clock. It was 12:29.

The fouth shot came from the front and was a direct hit to jfks head , i dont recall ever mentioning the 4th shot hit Tague






Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any evidence of anybody having fired from the area on the railroad tracks above the triple underpass?


Mr. TAGUE. None.Not relevant , so what , he didnt see him .




Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that it is consistent with what you heard and saw that day, that the shots could have come from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. TAGUE. Yes.

Yes i agree too, 3 shots did come from the TSBD so what ? Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any evidence of anybody having fired from the TSBD Mr Tague ? i think i know what his answere would have been .

[FISHY1118]

I'll leave HS to develop his FBI psychological profile in order to pick up on his observation that a jury would find Oswald guilty on the evidence in about 10 minutes. It would save us all a lot of court time if this happened but the problem was dramatised in the play 'Twelve Angry Men:' on a jury there is always some bleeding heart, lefty, liberal type like Jim Garrison or Mark Lane who insists on the evidence being examined and weighed up. As the character played by Lee J. Cobb said dismissively at the outset: 'There's always one.' In the film version Henry Fonda plays this role much to the displeasure of the Lee J. Cobb character who fails to browbeat the jury into seeing what for him is the EVIDENCE. (He does shout at this point which is why I put the quote in capitals.) In his eyes the evidence has been 'twisted and turned' and he worries that the accused, on a murder rap, is 'slipping through our fingers.' I imagine these two character types have been exaggerated for dramatic effect but am confident they exist to some degree in most juries.

There was no mistake involved in Lee Harvey Oswald being impersonated since it happened on around four occasions. On three of those it was a person using Oswald's name (the 1959 FBI memo, hiring a truck for gun running to Cuba and the Silvia Odio account where the name used was 'Leon Oswald.') The best known impersonation is the one with the wrong person in the photograph from Mexico City, when someone phoned an embassy claiming to be Oswald who clearly, according to the FBI analysis, was not him. With the latter two impersonations happening shortly before the assassination there was clearly something rotten in the state of Dallas.

Oswald's reason for refusing a local lawyer would have been the same as the security service's for declining an autopsy at Parkland. Maybe history would be clearer had they been less suspicious.

Governor Connally testified to the Warren Commission that the bullet which struck him in the back was fired later than the bullet which caused at least one of President Kennedy’s non–fatal wounds. Connally maintained for the rest of his life that he was struck by a separate bullet[he must have lie], after Kennedy had already been wounded.4 Two Eye–Witnesses to a Second Bullet

Connally’s testimony: Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, pp.135f. He was quoted in the Washington Post, 21 November 1966, saying that “there is my absolute knowledge that … one bullet caused the president’s first wound and that an entirely separate shot struck me. It is a certainty. I will never change my mind.” It was Connally’s testimony that persuaded one of the Warren Commissioners, Senator Richard Russell, that the single–bullet theory was untenable; see Richard Russell and the Warren Report [ Connally must have surely lied again]





Two of the closest eye–witnesses were Governor Connally’s wife, [ she must have lied ] who was sitting to his left, and James Chaney [he must have lied also] the police motorcyclist who was riding to President Kennedy’s right. Both independently claimed that Connally’s back wound was caused by a separate bullet.5 The Zapruder Film and Evidence of a Later Bullet


Nellie Connally:[ Shes LYING again] “I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck. … Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, p.147). James Chaney was one of four police motorcyclists who had a close–up view of the shooting. None of the four was invited to testify before the Warren Commission. Chaney’s opinion is known from the testimony of another policeman, Marrion Baker: “I talked to Jim Chaney[ his lying], and he mad


I too was thinking of ''Twelve Angry Men'' with this in mind , can you imagine the nerve of W.C supporters thinking that LHO would be found guity in a trial had one taken place !!!!!!. Were dealing with some strange ones thats for sure . He would walk free in a heartbeat.

[Fiver]

Anyone with a shred of human empathy would recognise how vulnerable Marina Oswald was after the assassination, leaving her susceptible to manipulation by the FBI. Due to death threats she was under FBI protection up until she testified before the Warren Commission. She was a young mother of two pre-school children. She had a poor command of the English language. She had no visible means of income.

You are proposing an incompetent Conspiracy, one that is scrambling to pressure witnesses into changing statements.

There is no evidence Marina Oswald was pressured by anyone. She was not alone when she went to the police station, she was with either Ruth Paine or her mother-in-law. She was interviewed by two Secret Service and two FBI agents. Before she could be read her rights, Marina asked "Do I have a right not to answer question if I do not want to." She was told yes and that she had a right to a lawyer. (Documents related to her interviews are CE 1788 through CE 1794 and CE 1798)

Marina and her children, her mother-on-law, and her brother-in-law were put up in suite at the Six Flags Motel, guarded by the Secret Service, not the FBI. Agent Lee Gopadze suggested to Marina that she get a lawyer. When she gave testimony to the Warren Commission, Marina had her own lawyer present, John M. Thorne. When she gave testimony to the HSC, she had her own lawyer present, James Hamilton.

[C. F. Leon]

Governor Connally testified to the Warren Commission that the bullet which struck him in the back was fired later than the bullet which caused at least one of President Kennedy’s non–fatal wounds. Connally maintained for the rest of his life that he was struck by a separate bullet[he must have lie], after Kennedy had already been wounded.4 Two Eye–Witnesses to a Second Bullet

Connally’s testimony: Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, pp.135f. He was quoted in the Washington Post, 21 November 1966, saying that “there is my absolute knowledge that … one bullet caused the president’s first wound and that an entirely separate shot struck me. It is a certainty. I will never change my mind.” It was Connally’s testimony that persuaded one of the Warren Commissioners, Senator Richard Russell, that the single–bullet theory was untenable; see Richard Russell and the Warren Report [ Connally must have surely lied again]

...

Connally was probably thinking of a cardinal rule in the Military: "You NEVER hear the shot that hits you." and thought that the FIRST shot hit JFK, the second shot hit him, and the 3rd shot was the head shot. The WC postulated that the first shot missed, and the SECOND shot was the one that hit BOTH JFK & JC.

No deliberate LYING is necessary either way, JC made a simple mistake.

[FISHY1118]

According to James Tague the 2nd bullet cause his wound . You can see the problem ?

[FISHY1118]

IF Connally is telling the truth,and it would only be an idiot that would call him a liar [ John Connally''and that an entirely separate shot struck me. It is a certainty. I will never change my mind.” ] no matter which way you sliceand dice it , there has to be a 4th shot/ bullet , thats a second shooter 100%.

[Doctored Whatsit]

IF Connally is telling the truth,and it would only be an idiot that would call him a liar [ John Connally''and that an entirely separate shot struck me. It is a certainty. I will never change my mind.” ] no matter which way you sliceand dice it , there has to be a 4th shot/ bullet , thats a second shooter 100%.

This is a confusing statement. "It would only be an idiot that would call him a liar", you write, and then say that he was wrong because there were 4 bullets fired not three!

Connally felt sure that he was hit by a separate bullet, although he had his back to the President, was sure that there were only three bullets, and all from the rear and from the direction of the Book Depository building.

We are certainly cherry picking if we are adamant that he was right about one thing, but wrong about others.

[FISHY1118]

Not so , I think your missing the fact.

If Connally was sure there where 3 shots and a separate shot hit him, then work it out .

1 for jfk back and neck
1for Connally wounds
1 for tague wound.

3 shots all from the rear.

Now which shot hit the president and blew his head to bits ?

I'll leave the cherry picking to others .

As I said ,carve it up anyway you like, if Connally is right with his separate bullet that hit him ,then there is a 4th shot and a second shooter.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't recall having read THAT one. IIRC, the only books on the JFK assassination that I've actually bought have been The Warren Commission's Report, Posner's Case Closed, Manchester's The Death of a President, and Dr. Lattimer's Kennedy and Lincoln. I've read several of the conspiracy books, but decided not to spend $$ on any after the total nonsense of Best Evidence. Mortal Error did intrigue me when I first read it, but I was a kid and just getting into the research.

Best Evidence by Lifton is enough to drive anyone insane CF. Bugliosi’s book is a tome but well worth it. 1632 pages plus a cd rom with at least the equivalent number of pages worth of info. For me, he’s nailed it. CT’s hate it of course and call him the usual stuff like ‘Warren Commission apologist’ (as if we should assume a corrupt commission) Its just a step away from calling him a ‘conspiracy denier.’ And this is the problem of course. A conspiracy is more ‘interesting.’ CT’s are all over the media so the ‘conspiracy version’ is so prevalent that today most people just assume that conspiracy has been proven. It’s like those that have been duped online by the Cross bandwagon only a million times worse. Of course there are reasonable conspiracy theorists but there are a huge amount out there that aren’t. They play a very dangerous game. Just one example of course from recent memory is the Sandy Hook conspiracy theory promoted by that reptile Alex Jones. A sad indictment of how reprehensible human beings can be. Then there was Pizzagate. Another horror show.

The problem can be the ‘boy who cried Wolf’ syndrome. The looney-element, waffling on about shapeshifters, chemtrails, tainted KFC chicken, Illuminati, faked moon landings, flat earth and the Royal Family eating babies can have the effect of causing people to switch off when they might actually have come up with some real conspiracy/plot. They do exist of course but the trend these days is to see them in everything. Social media had set off an unstoppable tide of, sometimes dangerous, waffle.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s not about calling Connally a liar Fishy. It’s about suggesting that a man, in an enormously stressful situation where he and his President had been shot, people are screaming, his wife is talking to him, he’s losing consciousness, in an incident of a very few seconds. Then later he is asked to think back to that incident. No investigator, psychologist or whatever expert that you could name wouldn’t warn us all about the frailty of human memory and judgment. Especially in a situation like that. A warning about how time can often cause us to re-shape our memories. Especially in a situation where we are dealing with split second reaction times. Everyone knows that pain isn’t a good measure of time. We’ve all heard of people being injured and being unaware of the fact.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Of course there’s one point, posed again recently, which should kill any suggestion of conspiracy stone dead. The three cartridges on the 6th floor. Why would any conspiracy, even if it was planned by idiots, have risked 4 bullets being recovered, after an extra shot from the Knoll, especially when the very real possibility existed that a bullet could have been found by a member of the public? How could they have explained away 4 bullets but only 3 cartridges? Unless they had tried “Oswald picked up one cartridge as a souvenir,” then it’s a point that cannot be countered. Perhaps it’s been suggested somewhere that 2 entirely unconnected assassination attempts were occurring in Dealey Plaza (frankly it wouldn’t surprise me)?

No. We have to stay within the bounds of reason. No plotter on earth would have done this unless they either had told the 6th floor assassin to pick up the cartridges or, if it’s suggested that no shots were fired from the 6th floor, then no cartridges would have been left in the first place. The ‘conspiracy’ falls on this point and I’m certain that conspiracy theorists must realise this.

[FISHY1118]

I disagree Herlock , Im coming from the viewpoint that Connally knew what he said , his quote couldnt be any clearer or precise ,if you want use that excuse to suggest he was miskaken about the bullet that struck him, then we are different in our opinions once again .Dont forget his wife and two police officers confirm Connallys separate bullet account . Are you willing to hold them to the same excuse ?

For arguement sake[ hell what else] and just indulge me if you wouldnt mind , If Connally is correct and he was hit with a separate bullet than the jfk back and throat wound caused , where does that leave the WC lone gunman 3 shot theory? .Given the fact you now have to acount for 1 shot for jfk wounds , 1shot connally wounds , 1 shot tague wound , 1 shot jfk head kill . ??? Would that be a reasonable call .?

[FISHY1118]

The three cartridges on the 6th floor. Why would any conspiracy, even if it was planned by idiots, have risked 4 bullets being recovered, after an extra shot from the Knoll,




Not really , The 1 shot cartridge from the front may have been picked up by the shooter, there were only tiny fragments in jfk head , not a bullet.