JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You’re whole post fell at the very first hurdle. A conspiracy couldn’t possible have arranged for Oswald to have got the job at the TSBD because we know exactly how he got it. They could have had absolutely no control over Linnie May Randle or Buell Frazier. They also had no way of preventing employers giving Oswald any of the 5 (that we know of) jobs that he applied for just before getting the TSBD job. He gets a job at another company first and any assassination plot is gone.

You are making an elementary logical mistake.

Oswald's only chance of assassinating Kennedy depended on getting the job at the TSBD.

There is no evidence that he showed any preference for that job.

The conspiracy to assassinate Kennedy did not depend on getting Oswald placed at the TSBD and the motorcade route passing it, except on 22 November.

If those two conditions had not been met, the conspirators would have tried to commit the assassination in another place.

[Fiver]

Indeed. The usual claim is some time after 11.55 when Oswald was last seen on the 6^th floor. But there are a couple of problems with this. Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald on either the 2^nd or 1^st floor at 12.15.

"Mrs. R. E. ARNOLD, Secretary, Texas School Book Depository, advised she was in her office on the second floor of the building on November 22, 1963, and left that office between 12:00 and 12:15 PM, to go downstairs and stand in front of the building to view the Presidential Motorcade. As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor. She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM."

If this fleeting glimpse was Oswald, it gives him 15 to 18 minutes to take the elevator upstairs to the 6th floor and set up the sniper's nest.

And crucially our two witnesses Junior Jarman and Harold Norman stated they came in the back door of the TSBD, and based on their explanation of when and why they did this, the time can be narrowed down to 12.23.

Jarman's testimony is that he broke for lunch at 11:45. After eating lunch, he went outside. He re-entered the building with Harold Norman between 12:20 and 12:25, then took the elevator up to the 5th floor.

Norman's testimony is that he and Jarman went outside around 12:00 to 12:10.

Which gives Oswald between 20 and 30 minutes after he saw Jarman and Norman to take the elevator upstairs to the 6th floor and set up the sniper's nest.

They did not notice Oswald but he stated (according to Fritz’s notes) that he saw them pass by the domino room on the 1^st floor.

Taking the elevator up does not pass by the 1st floor domino room. Oswald's claim would be to have seen Norman and Jarman some time between 11:55 and 12:10, not some time after 12:23 pm.

Now Oswald identified them both: he did not guess at one of them or put their colleague Bonnie Ray Williams (who they later joined on the 5^th floor) in their company. He identified Jarman by name and gave an accurate description of Norman whose name he presumably did not know.

"He stated possibly one of these employees was called ‘Junior’ and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize."

"Short" is hardly a detailed description.

There are also the testimonies of Troy West, Danny Acre, and Jack Dougherty that they ate lunch in the domino room and did not see Oswald.

[Pcdunn]

Just watched a 2021 episode on the JFK assassination from the series "Ten Steps to Disaster" which convinces me more than ever that the assassination was a series of human errors, rather than a deliberate conspiracy.
From the overlooked warnings dismissed as "chatter" of no importance or validity, to the missed connections between Oswald and the KGB, to the "death trap limousine", to the route that requires a sharp, slow turn, to the hung over Secret Service agents.... human error, all the way.

By the way, any thoughts on the elderly New England man who planned a suicide bomb attempt on Kennedy in 1960? He took a road trip to Florida, but kept sending postcards to his friend, the Belmont postmaster, each more rambling and disturbing than the last.
if you're turning your car into a bomb to kill the President-Elect, perhaps don't hint that you'll be known by everyone in a few days.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

"Mrs. R. E. ARNOLD, Secretary, Texas School Book Depository, advised she was in her office on the second floor
If this fleeting glimpse was Oswald, it gives him 15 to 18 minutes to take the elevator upstairs to the 6th floor and set up the sniper's nest.

Oswald can use the elevator whenever he likes, get into it with a rifle without anyone noticing it, assemble it without anyone noticing, set up the sniper's nest without anyone noticing, shoot Kennedy without anyone being around, cross the sixth floor while carrying a rifle - after the shooting - without anyone noticing, and then descend the stairs to the second floor without anyone noticing and without showing any signs of recent physical activity.

The Invisible Man.

[Fiver]

The somebody with an unrestricted view of the President was standing behind the picket fence.[/B]

Anyone who claims the Grassy Knoll would have given an unrestricted view of JFK has never seen the actual position.

This video shows just how many trees would have blocked line of sight from the Grassy Knoll.

Even Stone's JFK movie, which fudges times and positions, shows how poor visibility from the Grassy Knoll was.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You are making an elementary logical mistake.

Oswald's only chance of assassinating Kennedy depended on getting the job at the TSBD.

There is no evidence that he showed any preference for that job.

The conspiracy to assassinate Kennedy did not depend on getting Oswald placed at the TSBD and the motorcade route passing it, except on 22 November.

If those two conditions had not been met, the conspirators would have tried to commit the assassination in another place.

How can you keep on and on making these illogical posts PI? Where on earth do you get this kind of ‘thinking’ from? You display it everywhere.

Please just try and understand this elementary point.

The conspirators needed LHO to be at the TSBD (or more accurately….they needed him to be working at a building along Kennedy’s motorcade route where he could fire a rifle unseen…ok?)

Before he’d even heard of any job at the TSBD he applied for a job after seeing an advertisement in the newspaper. He was close to getting it but the potential employer called Oswald’s previous employer who said that because Oswald spoke Russian that he might have been a communist (a typical opinion of the time) so Oswald didn’t get the job.

If he had got the job his role in any assassination attempt would have been at an end…..can you understand this point?

And then he was sent to 4 interviews by an employment commission. Conspirators could have had absolutely no influence or control over these interviews.

If he had got any one of these 4 jobs his role in any assassination attempt would have been at an end….can you understand this point?

If Marina and Ruth hadn’t gone to that coffee morning (attended by Linnie May Randle) then they wouldn’t have found out about any potential job at the TSBD.

If LHO hadnt got the job at the TSBD his role in any assassination attempt would have been at an end…can you understand this point?

And finally, what if he’d gone for the interview by he hadn’t got the job? (Unless Roy Truly was part of a conspiracy too - and why not…let’s face it, according to CT’s virtually everyone was ‘in on it.’)

So if he’d failed the interview his role in any assassination would have been at an end….can you understand this point?

And we don’t even know if Oswald applied for other jobs unsuccessfully too.


So…….there was clearly, obviously no conspiracy to somehow plant Oswald at the TSBD. It’s not just unlikely PI…..it’s impossible. Why can’t you simply concede one very obvious point? Why do you feel the desperate need to argue the toss over every single point? It’s unbelievably annoying. Yes, there are so many points in this case that can be debated and are subject to individual interpretation but this just isn’t one of them. It’s black and white. Just give it up.

[Fiver]

According to the Warren Commission Report and its supporters here, President Kennedy was shot in the back of the neck.

Why was he not propelled backwards by that shot?

Because bullets don't throw people around like they do in the movies.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just watched a 2021 episode on the JFK assassination from the series "Ten Steps to Disaster" which convinces me more than ever that the assassination was a series of human errors, rather than a deliberate conspiracy.
From the overlooked warnings dismissed as "chatter" of no importance or validity, to the missed connections between Oswald and the KGB, to the "death trap limousine", to the route that requires a sharp, slow turn, to the hung over Secret Service agents.... human error, all the way.

By the way, any thoughts on the elderly New England man who planned a suicide bomb attempt on Kennedy in 1960? He took a road trip to Florida, but kept sending postcards to his friend, the Belmont postmaster, each more rambling and disturbing than the last.
if you're turning your car into a bomb to kill the President-Elect, perhaps don't hint that you'll be known by everyone in a few days.

This is a huge issue Pat. We all know from the ripper case how many errors occurred, how many conflicting testimonies, how many contested witness testimonies, how many disputed police actions, none of which point to a conspiracy. Compare that to the immensely more complicated assassination of JFK. We would probably have to multiply the above by a 1000. And the problem is that this is fertile ground for conspiracy. I’m afraid that many conspiracy theorists see every issue as having a sinister origin. Events have to be viewed in context of course but this doesn’t happen with some. As we know people don’t always react in textbook style when bullets are flying. An autopsy is hardly likely to be ‘normal’ when it wasn’t expected, it was of the President, and that there was naturally a large entourage of military, secret service etc all with things on their mind other than the actual autopsy. Even the pathologists talked about it. Boswell described it as a three-ringed circus. It was just the reality of the situation.

The story of the New England man is only vaguely familiar Pat.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Because bullets don't throw people around like they do in the movies.

You’ll be telling us that Santa doesn’t exist next Fiver.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I have read your latest post, Sherlock, and I think I can honestly say that while it is overflowing with your customary condescension, a habit noted by others, it does not answer anything I actually wrote.

As I pointed out, the conspirators would ultimately have eliminated Kennedy one way or another.

Had they not been able to arrange for the motorcade route to pass a building in which a former defector to the Soviet Union just happened to be working and taking his lunch break, they would have found another way.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

No problem. Because when the first shot was known to have been heard there was no reaction at all from either Kennedy or Connally so we know that the first shot missed. Then Kennedy and Connally were hit at the same time with the same bullet and then the head shot. The second shot is a matter of debate as conspiracy theorists believe that there was a gap between Kennedy and Connally being hit albeit a fraction of a second which they say shows that they were hit by 2 bullets. It’s close to impossible to accurately time that gap though. If you look at the Zapruder film closely it appears to me and many others that they were hit by the same bullet.

The only bullets that we’re found were some fragments in the car and Kennedy’s brain and the bullet found on Connally’s stretcher at Parkland which has been called ‘pristine.’ It wasn’t pristine, it was damaged but not much so it might be called ‘almost pristine. So actually, despite accusing the WC of creating the so-called Magic Bullet, conspiracists can’t explain their own magic bullet. If it didn’t hit Connally after going through Kennedy where did it disappear too. They draw diagrams showing that a bullet going from Oswald through Kennedy would have passed by Connally’s left arm in a downward motion to the left - directly at the Secret Service agent in the front passenger seat. If that was the case it must have put the breaks on and then moved upwards and over the car and away.

got it thanks

[Fiver]

In hindsight the three assassinations of US major political figures in the 1960s- JFK, MLK and RFK- are remarkable in that in each case, despite the victims having no shortage of political enemies, the accused all acted alone.
[/SIZE]

Being killed by a lone assassin is typical, not remarkable. For the actual or attempted assassinations of Garfield, McKinley, Teddy Roosevelt, Reagan, Jackson, Taft, FDR, Nixon, and Ford the accused acted alone. Or for non-presidents, there were Medgar Evers, George Rockwell, and George Wallace.

Even in the only proven case of a conspiracy to assassinate a US President, Booth was the only attacker.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

For the actual or attempted assassinations of Garfield, McKinley, Teddy Roosevelt, Reagan, Jackson, Taft, FDR, Nixon, and Ford the accused acted alone.

But he didn't just happen to be working in a building which the President was passing, and just happen to have started working there five and a half weeks before.

And he didn't just happen to have been an ostensible traitor to America and then just happen to be able to come back home and be allowed to murder the President.

[DJA]

You’ll be telling us that Santa doesn’t exist next Fiver.

Everybody knows there's no Sanity Claus ...... well,almost

[Fiver]

Both Postal and Benavides described a man who was wearing a dark-coloured shirt and had a ruddy complexion.

Oswald did not have a ruddy complexion.

So you're claiming that the man arrested at the theater was not Lee Harvey Oswald? Because Laura Postal saw him when he was brought out if the theater by police, too.

And, of course, people who have been running and then engaged in a struggle with multiple police officers while trying to shoot them would have no reason to be more red-faced than normal from the exertion.