JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[GBinOz]

Hehe. Little Knowledge and Dangerous Thing enjoying a mutual admiration and back slapping hoedown together. How touching. How quaint.

[cobalt]

Fiver replied in a post yesterday setting out the problems that would face a team of shooters in Dealey Plaza. I did warn against setting oneself up as an expert in such matters but I can hardly complain since I am guilty of doing the same myself. Fiver’s post was well set out and contained very little that I disagreed with.

However a couple of points I would make. If there was a conspiracy involving more than one shooter, as I think there was, then it did not need any more than one ‘patsy.’ Six or seven bullets might have been fired from all angles but the main objective of the conspiracy was to kill the president and provide a scapegoat with the right background. The unidentified gunmen would have been assumed to be persons sympathetic to Oswald’s synthetic pro-Castro ideology.

The decision to opt for the LGT was a political response to the president’s murder and to make smooth the transfer of power to Johnson. That does not mean that Johnson, Hoover or Earl Warren were part of a conspiracy to assassinate the president. But for different reasons- in Warren’s case I suspect a genuine concern for his country rather than the self-interest of the other two- the LGT was seen as the best route forward to protect the institutions of the USA.

[Aethelwulf]

Hehe. Little Knowledge and Dangerous Thing enjoying a mutual admiration and back slapping hoedown together. How touching. How quaint.

Poor diddums you.

PI, Cobalt and Fishy borrowing the brain cell for the day then?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hehe. Little Knowledge and Dangerous Thing enjoying a mutual admiration and back slapping hoedown together. How touching. How quaint.

You really are revealing your true self here George. What an embarrassing baby you are. You’ve spent most of the thread doing the old pals act with your cheerleader Fishy but you make these silly comments just because Wulf and I agree. You really are a child.

Why don’t you do something constructive and in keeping with the thread for a change, instead of your Olympic level bleating, and try actually addressing some of the points and questions that have been raised? I’ll tell you why George…..it’s because you’ve only ever read of the case from one side….the conspiracists side. You have admitted it yourself. Therefore, unlike me and others who have had the honesty to read from both sides, you are only willing to consider points that conform to your own preconceptions. To put it another way….you permanently have the conspiracy goggles on.

Nothing speaks louder than the lack of proper responses and answers from you (and Fishy and Cobalt and PI) You’ve even gone to the length of manufacturing a bit of fake outrage to give yourself an excuse for ducking questions.

Honestly George…..you really should take a long hard look at your actions on this thread.

[Fiver]

Assuming Oswald was the lone assassin, he could not have known the motorcade route until three days before the assassination.

That means he would have had three days in which to plan the assassination of the President of the United States.

The assumption that weeks before the assassination, Oswald luckily applied for a job on what would become the motorcade route, planned the assassination at three days' notice, was able to enter the TSBD with a rifle without anyone noticing, carry it up to the sixth floor without anyone noticing, fire the shots from the sixth floor in the confident expectation that no-one else would be there, leave the rifle at the top of the stairs, knowing no-one would see him do so, descend the stairs without anyone seeing or hearing him, and be four floors below within 90 seconds of the assassination without showing any signs of recent physical activity, is a good deal more farfetched than the hypothesis that the conspirators had an expectation that the motorcade route would be adjusted to make sure that it did pass the TSBD.

Oswald started work at the Book Depository on October 16. The Secret Service began planning the mptorcade route.on November 15 and finalized it on November 18. So your Conspiracy has 4 to 7 days to plan a much more complex plot.

As to credibility, Oswald doing that is more likely than a stranger or even a team of strangers (Oliver Stone portrays 4) being able to able to enter the TSBD with a rifle without anyone noticing, carry it up to the sixth floor without anyone noticing, fire the shots from the sixth floor in the confident expectation that no-one else would be there, insure that anyone outside the building only see someone that looked like Oswald in the sniper's nest, ensure that Oswald had no alibi without Oswald or anyone else noticing him being spied on by strangers in the building, plant fiber and fingerprint evidence on boxes and the rifle, leave the rifle at the top of the stairs, knowing no-one would see them do so, descend the stairs without anyone seeing or hearing them, and be six floors below within 90 seconds of the assassination without anyone noticing them, and exit the building without anyone seeing them.

And we haven't even gotten to the Grassy Knoll nonsense.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And of course we know that Oswald applied for one job via a newspaper advertisement which he would have got if the potential employer hadn’t contacted his previous employer who told him that he was peculiar and spoke Russian, mentioning that he might have been a Communist. He also went to interviews at 4 other companies but didn’t get the jobs. How could any conspirators have been this lucky? Oswald could have ended up working anywhere so our conspirators would have had to have contacted the employment agency to see if they had any unemployed patsy’s on their books. It’s impossible. He only got the job at TSBD because Linnie Mae Randle was at a coffee morning with Marina and Ruth Paine and she told them how her brother, Buell Frazier, had got a job there.

And of course there the curtain rods lie which CT’s are keen to avoid like the plague (unless they’re quibbling over the estimated length of the package. To suggest that Frazier and Randle lied about this would be too preposterous for words. And we know for an absolute fact that Oswald wasn’t carrying curtain rods so there is only one conclusion that can be arrived at. Oswald lied. Apart from the mountain of other evidence, this fact alone proves at the very least that Oswald was taking something to work in a large package that he didn’t want anyone knowing about. There is simply no other explanation. And he was carrying no package when he left the TSBD and no curtain rods were ever found. This is open and shut. Oswald was taking his rifle to work. It is proven. All else is just white noise.

[Fiver]

Ruby too stated that there was a conspiracy, both to murder Kennedy and Oswald.

"No one else requested me to do anything. I never spoke to anyone about attempting to do anything. No subversive organization gave me any idea. No underworld person made any effort to contact me.' - Jack Ruby

"I am as innocent regarding any conspiracy as any of you gentlemen in the room." - Jack Ruby

"There was no conspiracy." - Jack Ruby

There is eyewitness evidence that Oswald was in the movie theater at the time of the Tippit shooting and that he tried to make contact with someone at the theater, repeatedly changing his seat and each time sitting next to a different patron.

Butch Burroughs testified that under oath that he did not see Oswald enter the theater.

Helen Markham picked Lee Harvey Oswald out of a lineup.
Domingo Benavides told police wasn't sure if he could ID Tippet's killer.
Johnny C. Brewer identified Oswald at the theater.
Ted Callaway picked Lee Harvey Oswald out of a lineup.
Barbara J. Davis picked Lee Harvey Oswald out of a lineup.
Virginia R. Davis picked Lee Harvey Oswald out of a lineup.
Sam Guinyard picked Lee Harvey Oswald out of a lineup.
Warren Reynolds identified Lee Harvey Oswald from a photograph. (Oswald was dead by the time police contacted him.)
William W. Scoggins picked Lee Harvey Oswald out of a lineup.
William Arthur Smith identified Lee Harvey Oswald from a photograph.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Oswald started work at the Book Depository on October 16. The Secret Service began planning the mptorcade route.on November 15 and finalized it on November 18. So your Conspiracy has 4 to 7 days to plan a much more complex plot.

As to credibility, Oswald doing that is more likely than a stranger or even a team of strangers (Oliver Stone portrays 4) being able to able to enter the TSBD with a rifle without anyone noticing, carry it up to the sixth floor without anyone noticing, fire the shots from the sixth floor in the confident expectation that no-one else would be there, insure that anyone outside the building only see someone that looked like Oswald in the sniper's nest, ensure that Oswald had no alibi without Oswald or anyone else noticing him being spied on by strangers in the building, plant fiber and fingerprint evidence on boxes and the rifle, leave the rifle at the top of the stairs, knowing no-one would see them do so, descend the stairs without anyone seeing or hearing them, and be six floors below within 90 seconds of the assassination without anyone noticing them, and exit the building without anyone seeing them.

And we haven't even gotten to the Grassy Knoll nonsense.

Most of your comments are based on the invalid assumption that someone else committed the assassination from the sixth floor of the TSBD and did all the things Oswald is alleged to have done there that day.

As I have pointed out before, the rifle could have been placed at the top of the stairs on a day prior to that of the assassination and remained there during the assassination.

[Fiver]

Agent Greer was a party to the assassination of President Kennedy.

He lied to the Warren Commission that he accelerated the car on hearing the shots.

Instead, he slowed the car down almost to a halt, to facilitate the assassination, and actually looked back at Kennedy, waiting for his brains to be blown out instead of getting him to safety.

Any assassin would have been leading his target - aiming in front of JFK's position to compensate for the limo moving forward. Slowing the car down would actually have made it harder to hit JFK.

And increased the risks of Greer getting hit by a stray shot. Why would Greer want to kill Kennedy and take near-suicidal risk to do so?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Slowing the car down would actually have made it harder to hit JFK.

It is easier to hit a stationary target than to hit a moving target.

And the target in this instance was very specific: someone's head.

[Fiver]

Could Oswald have arranged things so that he got to work in a building on the motorcade route just weeks before the route was published?

Could a Conspiracy have any reason to get Oswald a job that might not be anywhere near the planned route weeks before the route was planned?

Could Oswald have arranged it so that no-one in the TSBD would see him carrying a rifle anywhere in the building?

He had a better chance than a stranger or strangers.

Could Oswald have arranged it so that no-one else would be on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination and no-one would see him leaving the rifle at the top of the stairs?

He had a better chance than a stranger or strangers.

Could Oswald have arranged for a Secret Service man to call back two other SS men just as they were about to step onto the platforms at the back of the Presidential limousine only seconds before the assassination - thus allowing the assassination to succeed?

That isn't what happened. One Secret Service man, Jack McReady, was called back after Greer accelerated the Presidential limo, which happened after the head shot to JFK.

Could Oswald have arranged things so that Kellerman would not tell Greer early enough to save Kennedy that he accelerate, or that Greer would slow down the car almost to a halt, thus facilitating the assassination, or that Kellerman would be watching Kennedy's brains being blown out instead of getting him to safety, or that both Kellerman and Greer would be watching Kennedy at the same time, instead of getting him to

Slowing the car down actually made it harder to target Kennedy. And a Conspiracy would have no way of coordinating the timing of Greer slowing the limo down.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

If the shot that hit Kennedy in the back was a different one that hit Connally then they were too close together in time to have been fired by two different gunman. He wouldn’t have been able to have fired cocked and fired again in that space of time. So it was either the same bullet that struck both men or two bullets from 2 different gunmen.

Hi Herlock
sorry for late response on this one, Ive seemed to have missed it.

I still dont get it. Oswald fired three shots. the wc said one missed, one hit kennedy and Connally and the final third fatal head shot. why couldnt the WC simply been mistaken on this and the real sequence was the first hit kennedy, the second hit connally and the third fatal head shot?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

Could Oswald have arranged things so that he got to work in a building on the motorcade route just weeks before the route was published?


Could a Conspiracy have any reason to get Oswald a job that might not be anywhere near the planned route weeks before the route was planned?


Yes.

Unlike Oswald, the conspirators had the influence and the means to get the route to pass the TSBD.

Had they been unable to do so, they would have tried something else.




Could Oswald have arranged it so that no-one in the TSBD would see him carrying a rifle anywhere in the building?


He had a better chance than a stranger or strangers.


On the contrary.

Strangers might have had the opportunity to do so outside normal working hours when most employees were not about.




Could Oswald have arranged it so that no-one else would be on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination and no-one would see him leaving the rifle at the top of the stairs?


He had a better chance than a stranger or strangers.


You are making an invalid assumption that any gunman was on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination.

You are also assuming that the rifle was placed at the top of the stairs after the assassination rather than before it.




Could Oswald have arranged for a Secret Service man to call back two other SS men just as they were about to step onto the platforms at the back of the Presidential limousine only seconds before the assassination - thus allowing the assassination to succeed?


That isn't what happened. One Secret Service man, Jack McReady, was called back after Greer accelerated the Presidential limo, which happened after the head shot to JFK.


That IS what happened, as was recorded on film.

One of the SS men was Clint Hill and the other was either Lawton or Rybka.

It happened long before Greer accelerated the car, NOT afterwards.




Could Oswald have arranged things so that Kellerman would not tell Greer early enough to save Kennedy that he accelerate, or that Greer would slow down the car almost to a halt, thus facilitating the assassination, or that Kellerman would be watching Kennedy's brains being blown out instead of getting him to safety, or that both Kellerman and Greer would be watching Kennedy at the same time, instead of getting him to safety?


Slowing the car down actually made it harder to target Kennedy. And a Conspiracy would have no way of coordinating the timing of Greer slowing the limo down.


That is incorrect.

It is obviously easier to hit a stationary target than a moving one.

Your second statement is an invalid assumption.

Of course the conspirators could have worked that out in advance.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock
sorry for late response on this one, Ive seemed to have missed it.

I still dont get it. Oswald fired three shots. the wc said one missed, one hit kennedy and Connally and the final third fatal head shot. why couldnt the WC simply been mistaken on this and the real sequence was the first hit kennedy, the second hit connally and the third fatal head shot?

Hi Abby,

No problem. Because when the first shot was known to have been heard there was no reaction at all from either Kennedy or Connally so we know that the first shot missed. Then Kennedy and Connally were hit at the same time with the same bullet and then the head shot. The second shot is a matter of debate as conspiracy theorists believe that there was a gap between Kennedy and Connally being hit albeit a fraction of a second which they say shows that they were hit by 2 bullets. It’s close to impossible to accurately time that gap though. If you look at the Zapruder film closely it appears to me and many others that they were hit by the same bullet.

The only bullets that we’re found were some fragments in the car and Kennedy’s brain and the bullet found on Connally’s stretcher at Parkland which has been called ‘pristine.’ It wasn’t pristine, it was damaged but not much so it might be called ‘almost pristine. So actually, despite accusing the WC of creating the so-called Magic Bullet, conspiracists can’t explain their own magic bullet. If it didn’t hit Connally after going through Kennedy where did it disappear too. They draw diagrams showing that a bullet going from Oswald through Kennedy would have passed by Connally’s left arm in a downward motion to the left - directly at the Secret Service agent in the front passenger seat. If that was the case it must have put the breaks on and then moved upwards and over the car and away.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.

Could a Conspiracy have any reason to get Oswald a job that might not be anywhere near the planned route weeks before the route was planned?

You’re whole post fell at the very first hurdle. A conspiracy couldn’t possible have arranged for Oswald to have got the job at the TSBD because we know exactly how he got it. They could have had absolutely no control over Linnie May Randle or Buell Frazier. They also had no way of preventing employers giving Oswald any of the 5 (that we know of) jobs that he applied for just before getting the TSBD job. He gets a job at another company first and any assassination plot is gone.