JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Abby Normal]

Not forgetting of course that if Kennedy and Connally were hit by separate bullets that would mean 2 gunmen from behind (as suggested by Cyril Wecht) What evidence is there of that? Absolutely none.

hey Herlock
why would there need to be two gunman from behind?

Oswald alone-first bullet hits kennedy in the back/neck. second one misses kennedy and hits connally. Third one fatal head shot.

Couldnt this be possible with Oswald alone firing the three shots from behind? Even Connally and his wife beleive this is what happened.

[caz]

How can you ‘try your best’ to spill the beans?

He had a mouth. He had a voice. He wasn’t locked in solitary confinement for the rest of his life.

He didn’t ‘spill the beans’ because there were clearly no ‘beans’ to spill.


You just can’t get reasoned thinking out of a conspiracy theorist.

ps. as you’ve guessed, the above is referring to PI’s post.

Reminds me of Mike 'Pants on Fire' Barrett, when he tried his absolute best to spill the beans about who created the Maybrick diary, when and how, and just couldn't do it.

He even asked - but never paid - a private investigator to help find the evidence he needed to incriminate himself and his estranged wife in a hoax conspiracy. That should have rung all sorts of alarm bells with any objective investigator, when Barrett was finally reduced to swearing an affidavit because he could produce no stronger evidence for his forgery claims.

Love,

Caz
X

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hargis: Well, that right there is what I've wondered about all along, but see there's ah -- you've got to take into consideration we were moving at the time, and when he got hit all that stuff went like this, and of course I run through it.



Mrs Kennedy had no idea why she climbed onto the trunk of the limo and did not remember doing it. The most common speculation is she was trying retrieve part of he husband's brain. She did hand part of his brain to a doctor at the hospital.



Still and motion pictures disprove your theory, as does the skull x=ray.




Your lack of knowledge about backsplash is not proof. Clint Hill had the best view of the headshot, he said Kennedy was shot in the back of the head, then the right side of JFK's head exploded outward. X-rays support this. Still photographs support this. The Zapruder film supports this and shows that the majority of debris was projected forward. The lesser amount found behind JFK is easily explained by backsplash and the limo moving forward.

The only bullet fragments found in the limo, JFK, and Connally came from Oswald's Carcano. A bullet from the Grassy Knoll would have to leave a bigger entrance wound than entrance wound, turn left inside JFK's brain, and leave no bullet fragments anywhere.

The Parkland doctors appear to have been unanimous that the destruction of the right back portion of Kennedy's skull was caused by a shot from the front, as was Kennedy's personal physician.

The Warren Commission literally covered up the gaping hole in the back of Kennedy's head, which Clint Hill testified to having seen.

The best medical evidence is that it was a shot from the front, because that was the apparently unanimous medical opinion on the day of the assassination.

I have read derisory comments about the Parkland doctors not knowing the difference between wounds of entrance and exit, but they did - because Dallas was a violent city and you know I don't need to prove that.

They had seen vast numbers of both entrance and exit wounds and could tell them apart.

The fact that Kennedy's personal physician concurred with their view says a lot.

As for what came later, that was obviously a cover-up and the fact that the original autopsy notes were destroyed would appear to be part of it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just to refresh one's memory.


Here is the sequence of posts:


I already answered this in the post you quoted. Helen Markham's testimony under was that everything that Mark Lane claimed that she said was a lie by Mark Lane.

(Fiver, # 1653)


A lesson to PI, Fishy and George on how to properly evaluate witnesses with out the conspiracy goggles on Fiver.

You bit on Helen Markham is a perfect example but I guarantee that she’ll continue to be quoted by conspiracy theorists. It’s called cherry-picking.

Excellent, balanced post with a proper use of evidence.

(Herlock Shomes, [commenting on # 1653], # 1655)



I cannot think of a better example of the use of selective quotation to prove the opposite of what really happened.

I wonder how many readers now believe that Mark Lane invented his conversation with Helen Markham and that I got it wrong because I am a supposedly-gullible conspiracy theorist.


Now take a look at testimony of Helen Markham that Fiver omitted.

When Helen Markham appeared before the Warren Commission, she was provided with a transcript of her telephone conversation with Mark Lane and an audio recording of the same conversation was played to her.

Here are some extracts from the court record:

[Extracts follow]


The Warren Commission accepted that the man's voice on the recording was that of Mark Lane and that the woman's voice was that of Helen Markham.

Eventually, in her testimony, Helen Markham agreed that the woman's voice on the recording was hers.

Consequently, it was proven beyond any doubt that the conversation between Mark Lane and Helen Markham did take place.

Consequently, what I reported is proven to be true and your assertion that I was wrong and that Mark Lane lied about his conversation with Helen Markham is proven to be false.

The Warren Commission accepted that Mark Lane had told the truth, as confirmed by the tape recording, the transcript of it, and the transcript of the Commission's proceedings.

I wonder whether you will accept that that is the truth and that what I have written is true.

(PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, # 1666)



The silence is deafening.


(PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, # 1679)




Still no response.

This is, unfortunately, what happens when defenders of the Warren Commission Report are proven wrong on substantive issues: they shut up.

The same happened when they were confronted with the impossibility of a hunchback Kennedy managing to raise the wound in his back to a level in the car some six inches higher than it would have been in any reasonably normal sitting position: a refusal to respond.

Because there is no satisfactory answer.

Even the Warren Commission accepted that Lane told the truth about his conversation with Markham.

Strangely, the Commission's supporters here are so hostile to the views of so-called Conspiracy Theorists that they have outdone the Warren Commission.

That is quite an achievement.

There is no silence. It is very obvious to those who aren’t completely blind, unable to read, wearing the conspiracy goggles or entirely bereft of reason.

Helen Markham picked out Lee Harvey Oswald at a lineup. She was then interviewed by the liar Mark Lane. Anyone reading the transcript of that can see that it was an utterly disgraceful and clearly corrupt attempt to get her to say what he wanted her to say. This very average waitress who (without wishing to be insulting) clearly wasn’t the most intelligent of women stood up to this bully though and refused to be badgered.

So what did she end up saying? That Oswald was around 150 lbs (which he was) and that his hair was messed up (which it was) and that he was small (Oswald was actually of average height)

If you support Mark Lane on this you reveal much more about yourself than any of us could deduce. I could tell you even more about Mark Lane and what an utter scumbag he was but it clearly wouldn’t matter to you. Please stop embarrassingly claiming that you are in the right when you are obviously desperate to resort to anything.

Oh……and try responding directly to me rather than your weaselly method of simply referring to me or what I’ve said.

[Herlock Sholmes]

hey Herlock
why would there need to be two gunman from behind?

Oswald alone-first bullet hits kennedy in the back/neck. second one misses kennedy and hits connally. Third one fatal head shot.

Couldnt this be possible with Oswald alone firing the three shots from behind? Even Connally and his wife beleive this is what happened.

Hi Abby,

If the shot that hit Kennedy in the back was a different one that hit Connally then they were too close together in time to have been fired by two different gunman. He wouldn’t have been able to have fired cocked and fired again in that space of time. So it was either the same bullet that struck both men or two bullets from 2 different gunmen.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The Parkland doctors appear to have been unanimous that the destruction of the right back portion of Kennedy's skull was caused by a shot from the front, as was Kennedy's personal physician.

The Warren Commission literally covered up the gaping hole in the back of Kennedy's head, which Clint Hill testified to having seen.

The best medical evidence is that it was a shot from the front, because that was the apparently unanimous medical opinion on the day of the assassination.

I have read derisory comments about the Parkland doctors not knowing the difference between wounds of entrance and exit, but they did - because Dallas was a violent city and you know I don't need to prove that.

They had seen vast numbers of both entrance and exit wounds and could tell them apart.

The fact that Kennedy's personal physician concurred with their view says a lot.

As for what came later, that was obviously a cover-up and the fact that the original autopsy notes were destroyed would appear to be part of it.

You really don’t have a clue what you are talking about. You’re embarrassing. The autopsy was perfectly clear. It clearly wasn’t corrupt. The Parkland Doctors have been explained.

Do you honestly, really think (as an adult human being) that out brilliant conspirators would have gone to all of the trouble of arranging an entirely corrupt autopsy, taking care to find 2 corrupt pathologists then one of those corrupt pathologists requests the presence of another (luckily for the conspirators) corrupt pathologist, corrupt nurses, corrupt technicians, corrupt photographers, corrupt radiographers and corrupt military men - but they forgot to arrange for any cover up at Parkland?!! As I said in another post it would be like 3 men robbibg a bank and only putting masks on when they stepped out into the street!

It not only didn’t happen but it couldn’t possibly have happened. It’s entirely impossible. No one……and I mean no-one could have been that colossally, humongously, earth-shatteringly STUPID. And let’s not forget….they didn’t know that Kennedy would be taken to Bethesda but they absolutely did know that he would have been taken nowhere else but Parkland.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The only one I can think of is that the rifle was in the same place before, during and after the assassination.

No-one found it before the assassination because no-one was looking for a rifle.

It would have been an easy matter for someone to place the empty cartridge cases under the window shortly before the assassination without anyone noticing, but to place a rifle on the sixth floor shortly before the assassination would likely have attracted attention.

As I pointed out before, no-one saw Oswald carrying a rifle or anything that could have contained a rifle or its components anywhere in the TSBD.

I think someone retorted that no-one saw anyone else with a rifle in the TSBD.

Of course, because the rifle had been put in the place where it was later found at such a time that no-one who could later have testified about it would have noticed it being done.

God you come up with some staggering nonsense.

[FISHY1118]

No I don’t because he hasn’t made any silly posts. There are certainly many conspiracy theorists that I simply disagree with but I wouldn’t describe them as loonies. Some involved in the conspiracy debate I would definitely describe as looneys and crackpots and people that I wouldn’t trust …… Roger Craig, Beverley Oliver, Charles Crenshaw, Oliver Stone, Mark Lane, Jim Garrison, Beverley Oliver, Dr. McClelland, Jean Hill, Bonar Menninger, David Lifton, to name but a few. The full list would be a very, very long one.

I wouldn’t have lumped you and George into it if you had discussed the case within the bounds of reason and not simply piled in with loads of questions for me without feeling any obligation to actually answer any of my questions or points.

Ill ask a question and I won’t restrict you to one word…..hypothetically….would it be possible to have a reasoned debate on the ripper murders if the conversation went like this? -

Well what about the testimony of Mr X - manipulated by the police.

Well what about the MacNaghten Memorandum - forged.

What about when Miss Y said …… - well she would say that, she was in on it too.

Ok, so what about the graffito - faked.

And what about the evidence of the Miller’s Court photo - doctored.

And Mr X’s admittance to the asylum - forged.

And when someone asks for the evidence for the above the response is - well it must be forged and faked because it doesn’t conform to what a section of the witnesses stated and what I myself believe.

All reasoned debate is derailed with that approach.

Really? !!

His on record as saying Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy or Tippit and you don't think thats silly ??? Your post say otherwise.

If he was to elaborate on that and contribute to this thread, how could anything he post be any different to what George , cobalt,, p.i or myself have posted..??.

Unless he has his own "John Smith" lone gunman theory up his sleeve that doesn't involve any conspiracy. But I doubt it.

That would be a kin to Trevors jtr ripper victims had their organs removed by someone else post mortem..

Regarding your hypothetical question, one could say the same thing and take that same approach about the way in which the lone gunman theorists have looked at the evidence provided by George cobalt. P.i and myself.

So where does that leave both sides in regards to debating not only this but any topic.?

[FISHY1118]

So why have you and George never admitted it and why the refusal to respond?

'The same type of comments"

( you know the ones using words and emojies were not supposed to say but do anyway

Meaning the way in which they were delivered and worded.

Thats what I meant when I said I agree with your last sentence of your post.so yes I'm guilty just as you are of that.

[Fiver]

And according to PI the conspirators hired such an incompetent Grassy Knoll gunman that he couldn’t hit a target around 30 yards away travelling at a mere 11mph without needing Greer to deliberately slow that car down even more.

And if he wasn’t very good how could they have manipulated the wounds if he’d managed to hit Kennedy in the side of his neck and the bullet had gone right through to hit Jackie? Or if it had hit on the right eyebrow area and gone through. Or if he’d have missed and struck someone watching the motorcade. They really couldn’t have selected a worse position for a gunman. Directly in front of a police car park with a railway tower at the back? No plotters could have been that stupid.

The idea of multiple shooters requires stupid conspirators. Putting one assassin into place and getting them out again is much easier than doing it with two or more assassins. It makes much more sense to use a single skilled assassin with a top quality weapon, especially if you are selling a lone gunman theory.

If the conspirators are so lacking in skilled marksmen and quality weapons that they need multiple shooters, then they need these assassins to be grouped a closely together as possible. A second assassin in the Daltex building is credible. A second assassin in the Grassy Knoll is a very stupid place to put a second gunman - bullets will be coming from the wrong direction and even a moderately competent forensics team would be able to tell this.

As you note, the Grassy Knoll is also a terrible place to put an assassin because they've got to escape across fairly open, easily observable ground while carrying the murder weapon. They can't just ditch the weapon and leave the spent shells lying there - they have to collect every one of them.

There's also the problem of getting a clear shot. This video shows just how many trees would have blocked line of sight from the Grassy Knoll.

There's also the problem of lateral movement - the limo would have been traveling from left to right so a shooter from the Grassy Knoll would need to lead their target a much greater amount than a shooter from the Book Depository or the Daltex building. Being closer makes this problem worse as the shooter has to turn a lot more to maintain aim.

[Fiver]

The Warren Commission literally covered up the gaping hole in the back of Kennedy's head, which Clint Hill testified to having seen.

That is not what Clint Hill said.

Hill does not support your theory.

"That shot hit him in the back of the head and then it erupted out of the upper right quadrant just above the ear. And it blew that portion of the skull, which was still attached to the scalp, forward like a flap, kinda, and out of that wound gushed blood and bone fragments and brain matter all over the back of the car. All over me. All over Mrs Kennedy. " - Clint Hill

[Fiver]

How many different ways are you going to find to ask me the same stupid question? How many scientist testimonies do you require? Guinn, Petty a 32 page report, we’ve had military men and weapons experts who all tell us theat bullet shot victims don’t fly backwards like in the movies.

Just do me one favour……..go talk to someone else.

In addition to the scientists and Mythbusters, there are filmed examples.

One filmed example is the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan. Press Secretary Jim Brady, shot in the forehead, fell forwards towards the shooter. Police officer Thomas Delahanty was shot in the back of the neck. While he fell forward, his head did swing backwards, towards the shooter, as he fell.

Another filmed example is the murder of Russian Ambassador Andrei Karlov, Shot in the back, he fell backwards towards the shooter, ending up flat on his back.

[Fiver]

As I have pointed out, according to the autopsy, to which you are now referring, the shot that caused that wound entered at a downwards angle of 45-60 degrees
and entered Kennedy's back about six inches below the neckline.

It could not have passed through the front of Kennedy's throat nor hit Connally in the upper back.

Had it exited the front of Kennedy's body, it would have missed Connally altogether.

And then magically evaporated without hitting the limo or anyone else in it?
|
Plus your theory needs a second magic bullet to curve in the air to miss JFK and then curve in the air a second time to hit Connally.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In addition to the scientists and Mythbusters, there are filmed examples.

One filmed example is the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan. Press Secretary Jim Brady, shot in the forehead, fell forwards towards the shooter. Police officer Thomas Delahanty was shot in the back of the neck. While he fell forward, his head did swing backwards, towards the shooter, as he fell.

Another filmed example is the murder of Russian Ambassador Andrei Karlov, Shot in the back, he fell backwards towards the shooter, ending up flat on his back.

Yes, numerous tests and recreations have been done.

I wonder if PI will respond to your points because he challenged me to provide examples. Nobel Prixewinning physicists weren’t good enough for him.

[Herlock Sholmes]

After talking to Caz about how Oswald got his job and after hearing discussions on the likelihood of conspirators getting a ‘patsy’ like Oswald in the TSBD I thought that I’d look into Oswald’s employment record to assess the likelihoods. We can recall of course that Jim Garrison saw ‘the guiding hand of conspiracy’ in putting Oswald in place.

When Oswald failed to get to Cuba he arrived in Dallas by bus on October 3rd 1963 and took a room at the YMCA as Marina and June were living with Ruth Paine. The next day he responded to a newspaper advertisement from the Padgett Printing Company. The superintendent, Theodore Gangl, was impressed by him but decided to check his references; one of which was from a company called Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall. He phoned Robert Stovall who spoke to a subordinate who informed him that Oswald was a bit peculiar and that he had some knowledge of Russian. Stovall told Gangl: “Ted, I don’t know, this guy may be a damned Communist, I can’t tell you. If I was you, I wouldn’t hire him.” Gangl didn’t hire him. Oswald contacted Marina then moved out of the YMCA and into a rented room and lounged around for a few days.

Next, Oswald went to the Texas Employment Commission who arranged 4 interviews for him - Solid State Electronics, Harrel and Harrington (architects) Texas Power and Light and Burton-Dixie - none of which were successful. Then he had some luck.

After a coffee klatch (whatever one of those is - I’m assuming a coffee morning?) involving Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald, Linnie Mae Randle and Dorothy Roberts, Randle mentioned that her brother, Buell Frazier, had got a job at the TSBD. Marina asked Ruth to give them a call (Marina’s English was poor) Ruth spoke to Roy Truly who told her that there might be a job available and to get Lee to go for an interview. Later the same evening Oswald phoned to talk to Marina and Ruth told him about the interview. He went the next day and got the job.

So, for conspirators to have somehow manoeuvred Oswald into place and to have arranged themself an ideally placed ‘patsy,’ the conspirators would have had to have:


Arranged that Solid State Electronics didn’t give Oswald a job.

Arranged that Harrel And Harrington didn’t give Oswald a job.

Arranged that Texas Power and Light didn’t give Oswald a job.

Arranged that Burton-Dixie didn’t give Oswald a job.

Ensured that the Texas Employment Commission only arranged interviews for Oswald at companies that wouldn’t give him a job.

Ensured that Linnie Mae Randle attended the coffee klatch after the conspirators discovered that her brother worked at the TSBD.

Ensured that Oswald didn’t get another job by any other method (someone he knew for example or another newspaper ad)

Ensured that there was a job available at the TSBD.

Ensured that Roy Truly gave him the job.

…..


Can anyone believe that anything like the above was remotely plausible? If not, then our conspirators luck was at lottery winning levels.