Casebook Examiner No. 2 (June 2010)

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

Here's a private detective who had a walk-on role in the WM.

[London] Evening News, 29th October 1888–

THE EAST END MURDERS. EXPECTED IMPORTANT ARREST.

"The Central News learns that Private-detective Slater, of Basinghall-street, has submitted to the Scotland-yard authorities information of a most valuable character in connection with the personality of the Whitechapel murderer. It is believed that a most important arrest will shortly be made."

Slater's advertisement ran throughout the LVP–



In 1904 Henry Slater [aka Henry Seymour, Captain Scott and Captain Brown], his lawyer and two detectives were arrested on charges of conspiracy involving the fabrication of evidence in a divorce case.

Regards,

Simon

[mariab]

Caz wrote:
Hi Maria,
Well yes, and I wondered why people had been carefully avoiding the subject. I thought old man Packer was taken initially to see Kate, to test his willingness to 'recognise' any old recently murdered female, with the result that he confidently stated he had never seen her before. Had she been Liz, it would have been over for him at that point. Even sooner, had he said of Kate: "Yes, that's the woman I saw".
Hi, Caz. VERY interesting point. I can imagine that Le Grand would have “coached“ Packer on what to say, were the story of his manipulations true. I still need to read up about Packer and Le Grand (starting with Examiner 2), since I'm everything but informed about all this.

To Tom Wescott:
I know the show like my inside pocket, and I own every single episode, unfortunately minus the unaired pilot with another actress than Alyson Hannigan for Willow, which is not in the European version of season 1 on DVD. I haven't read the season 8 comic book, but from what I've heard it caters more to comic book fans (and Josh Whedon is such a one). The part about Dawn having swollen up to gigantic proportions after having been acquainted with I-don't-know-what-you'd-call-it I still haven't been able to figure out.
Tom Wescott wrote:
Thank you for the gracious compliment about my instincts.
I don't remember having issued anything like that? Possibly I was just referring to Spike. (And by the way, are we sure to still be on a casebook thread here?! )
As for South Africa, it's minorly related to the JTR case. Not just due to numerous fake Ripper letters having originated from ZA, but wasn't one of the police officials involved with the JTR case also active in South Africa or something? I apologize most profoundly for not having researched this, but I'm so woozy after 4 hours of dancing non stop, followed by another couple hours of girly chatting at my place. And by the way: Not only are Stellenbosch and its campus quite the party town, but my new South African friend (whom 3 days ago I didn't know from Adam's cat) and I totally put the town on fire until a little while ago. It was just like in the episode Bad girls. (She was B, I was Faith...)

[lynn cates]

investigative agency

Hello Caz. Your post is succinct and well reasoned. It brings up the inevitable question, Did Le Grand EVER work a legitimate case? or, what is nearly the same, Did he ever work as a serious (or quasi-serious) investigator?

I saw a snippet in Lloyd's Weekly from April 1888, where a private investigative firm was advertising as being the only such firm in London. So, did Le Grand have ambitions of giving competition to the other firm, or was his agency merely a front?

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Jack wants Packer for a Smokescreen?

Terribly sorry for putting Eddowes at the wrong mortuary! (And I've wondered about that at the very moment I typed about her, he he!!) And I've also often wondered if Packer went to see Eddowes too, besides Stride...

Hi Maria,

Well yes, and I wondered why people had been carefully avoiding the subject. I thought old man Packer was taken initially to see Kate, to test his willingness to 'recognise' any old recently murdered female, with the result that he confidently stated he had never seen her before. Had she been Liz, it would have been over for him at that point. Even sooner, had he said of Kate: "Yes, that's the woman I saw".

So Liz was the second recently murdered female he was taken to see, and this time he claimed to recognise her.

If the whole 'wrong body/right body' charade was set up by Le Grand and his chum, it was quite a neat trick to pull off, considering Packer was a bit simple and could so easily have buggered it up and dropped all three of them in it.

I can't believe any serial killer worth his salt would have passed and re-passed Packer several times, let along come up behind him in an evil and menacing manner and hung around that long.

Hi Jane,

No, I'm sure Packer was quite enjoying himself by now, and getting right into his stride. But Tom's theory involves the same serial killer, having so recently got into his Stride, approaching Packer (who presumably didn't know Le Grand from Adam at this point) and somehow charming a complete fairy tale out of him about an invented suspect, without the old man raising an eyebrow about his motives.

Now I can well imagine that Le Grand's motive was to try and make monkeys out of the police and make himself, by comparison, look like the grand professional detective that he wasn't. But I can't believe his motive (as the murderer) was to get Packer, of all people, to send the police off after a mythical suspect, because he hadn't a hope in hell that it would actually work - and of course it didn't work. Packer was the one person who had already told a policeman that he had seen nobody and nothing suspicious. Why would they have taken his subsequent tales seriously, unless there was a bloody good reason?

If this was the ripper, using Packer to create a smokescreen, it was a waste of his time and effort.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jane Coram]

Hi Fisherman,

I'm not even going to ask how long your arms are -- or anything else for that matter.

Actually, I'm rather partial to a man in waders!

Much love

Janie

xxxxx

I really will shut up now. Lol.

[caz]

To any rational mind there should be nothing at all confusing about this. It certainly didn't confuse Swanson and Anderson, who decided Packer's statement was valueless as evidence...

Which, Tom, if you care to check back at my posts on the subject, is pretty much what I said too. Nothing that Packer said can be relied on because of the way his 'evidence' was induced and by whom.

That in no way means he didn't have any customers that night, or didn't see Liz or her killer at some point without knowing it at the time or thinking any more about it. He may well have done, without seeing either going into the yard, standing in the rain or doing anything noteworthy or suspicious. All three were definitely there, after all, in Berner Street.

Which is more than can be said for Le Grand at this point. Put him in Berner Street, at any point that night, and you'll impress the hell out of us all.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I never said Packer couldn't have seen Liz, I simply pointed out that he didn't. He stated he watched her and her man stand in the rain for half an hour. As you should be aware, the medical evidence shows her clothes were bone dry. Thus he never saw Stride and her killer. And why would her killer be hanging out before 11:30pm when she wouldn't be murdered for almost 90 minutes?
And then there's the small matter that Packer was not the source for this information. It was Le Grand who found him, Le Grand who kept him from PS White, Le Grand who wrote up the piece in the paper, Le Grand who 'found' the grapestalk, Le Grand who 'found' the two sisters who saw the grapestalk that was never there. This is the same Le Grand who habitually paid for alibis. Where in all of this is it that you're suggesting Packer told the truth?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Nowhere, Tom. I think those were all your words, not mine.

But I don't think you'll find it in anything I wrote either.

But don't let that get in the way of you telling a good yarn about Caz taking Packer the Pawn at his every word.

You do tell a good yarn.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

Jane Coram writes:

"If Packer was a fisherman, I suspect his arms wouldn't have been long enough to show off the size of the one that got away "

You´re not by any chance prejudiced against fishermen, are you, Jane?

Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

To Tom Wescott:
Actually what I very much like about Spike is not that he's “super cool“ and easy on the eyes, but the fact that he has this great sensibility and he immediately figures out what's going on inside other people. And it's so fun to see William the poet coming though the wannabe “evil“ Spike and his fake working class accent.

You mean William the Bloody? I see you know the show well, and thank you for the gracious compliment about my instincts. I have every season of Buffy, plus the 30 minute unaired pilot (with a different Willow), the unaired but very short pilot for the animated program that never happened, and the DVD of the 2008 Buffy reunion. I couldn't get into the season 8 comic book, however. There won't be another show like it.

Regarding South Africa, I can't even begin to comprehend. Not sure that would be on my list of places I'd like to visit.

If Packer was a fisherman, I suspect his arms wouldn't have been long enough to show off the size of the one that got away

LOL. How hilarious and completely accurate.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jane Coram]

Hi Tom,

(I'm always going to picture you in a long black leather trench coat from now on. Lol)

I knew blooming well that I was probably the last person in Rippology to find that report, but that's nothing new. Duh.

I loved the 'he looked at me, and I looked at him' bit. If Packer was a fisherman, I suspect his arms wouldn't have been long enough to show off the size of the one that got away

Hugs

Jane

xxxx

[mariab]

Without having yet managed to read Examiner 2, I find what Abby Normal very astutely observes about Packer's behaviour pre- and post- Le Grand very-very suspicious, i.e. Packer's willingness to tell everybody about what happened, when initially he didn't seek out at all to tell White.

To Tom Wescott:
Actually what I very much like about Spike is not that he's “super cool“ and easy on the eyes, but the fact that he has this great sensibility and he immediately figures out what's going on inside other people. And it's so fun to see William the poet coming though the wannabe “evil“ Spike and his fake working class accent. (Wow, they should really throw us out of casebook, or I should start a BtVS thread!!)
Tom Wescott wrote:
That's true, but 12 years on the Casebook and one picks up such things.
Good luck on the paper. I wasn't flexing any sort of muscle by mentioning my 15 or so essays, but when cyberbully Phil Carter tried to be insulting by suggesting that Simon and I aren't writers because we haven't published a book, I defined the term and stated that when I DO publish a book I will be promoted to 'author', and will join the ranks of folks such as yourself.
Wow, 12 years on casebook and 15 essays! Actually I don't consider myself as an author yet, at least until the first book (which is simply my dissertation) gets published, nor do I expect to feel any better about myself after having become an “author“. There are tons and tons of awfully bad authors already published and making millions.
The paper went fine, thanks so much for the well wishes. It was not any important occasion here in South Africa, and I had to simplify things and explain so much, that it was more like a lecture for music appreciation for beginners. But at least South Africans are (obviously) very politicized, and they were very interested to know about the politics of the Napoleonic era etc..
But the real highlight of my day was a visit to Kayamandi, the local township (and ex black ghetto), and particularily the visit to the township's high school. The director was a lazy bureaucrat more interested in trying to look inside my shirt, but the young female teacher was amazing, and the class of kids (age 11) I taught were super-super sharp, very sensibilized in history and politics, and also very lively and artistic (they sing and dance all the time). We talked a lot about the French Revolution, unemployment and homeless people in Europe, but also about French food, and I described how to make soufflé, which they all wanted to try afterwards.
The town was cleaner than places where I've camped while surfing, they have 2 hospitals, and electricity in all the shacks. (But they lack fridges.) We had locally made beer (with hardly any booze in it) made in the shack that serves as a local pub. But what they sell and eat for meat (probably due to the low price, and WITHOUT fridges!!) consists solely of tripe, HUGE cow hearts with all the arteries still on, and sheep heads, which looked more like the head of a dog. I swear there was an old lady with what I thought was yellow paint all over her face hitting a sheep head with a hammer, and it took me a moment to realize that what her face was covered with was not yellow paint!
Now I'm having some more Pinotage red wine, and in a little while it's girls' night out, dancing at a student hangout called The Bronze –eh---, sorry, Mystic Boer...
With many-many apologies for getting light years away from the subject of this thread,

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Jane. Yes, this little tale has made the rounds for years. And as you'll recall from my article, a week before this Packer tied his grape man to the Batty Street lodger. He was an all-purpose suspect. How anyone can think there's even a shred of truth to the Le Grand/Packer suspect is absolutely beyond me.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

I happened to notice this in a newspaper as I was trawling through the other day and didn't remember seeing it before. I daresay everyone else has, knowing my luck. I thought it might be of interest to people if they hadn't come across it before. It's from the Evening News, 31 October 1888

Last night, Mr. Matthew Packer, who keeps a fruitshop next to the gateway where the Berner-street murder was committed, stated that this last night or two he has felt greatly alarmed owing to his having seen a man exactly like the one who bought the grapes off him for the unfortunate murdered woman, Elizabeth Stride, a short time before the murder was committed. He alleges that he had often seen the man before the murder, as well as the woman who was murdered in Berner-street, but he had not seen any one resembling the man since the murder till he saw him again last Saturday night.

He was then standing with his fruit stall in the Commercial-road when he caught sight of him staring him full in the face. He kept calm and collected for a little time, hoping that a policeman would come by, but not one came. After passing and repassing him several times, the man then came behind him in the horse road looking in a very evil and menacing manner at him. He was so terrified that he left his stall and ran to a shoeblack that was near, and, pointing to the man, asked him to keep his eye on him and watch him.

His great fear was that the fellow was going to stab him to prevent him from identifying him, should anything be brought against him, or his arrest take place. No sooner, however, had he called the shoeblack's attention to him, than he ran away as fast as he could and succeeded in getting on a passing tram. He would have followed the tram had he been able to run, or if he could have left his stall, but he could not has he had several pounds of fruit on it. He has little doubt about him being the man, as he knew him again in a moment.

Now, I don't know if I'm being a bit of a cynic here, but although I've got great affection for Packer as a character, I have to say, this does look suspiciously like someone that's spinning a yarn. I can't believe any serial killer worth his salt would have passed and re-passed Packer several times, let along come up behind him in an evil and menacing manner and hung around that long. I also thought it was interesting that he stated he had not only seen the man often before the murder, but also Liz as well. . .

Hugs

Jane

xxxx

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom, you're starting to remind me of Spike (in BtVS).

I'll take that as a compliment, although I wish more girls in my daily life thought that! I did used to wear a long black trench, though!

And I only thought that Brits said “ninnies“.

That's true, but 12 years on the Casebook and one picks up such things.

Good luck on the paper. I wasn't flexing any sort of muscle by mentioning my 15 or so essays, but when cyberbully Phil Carter tried to be insulting by suggesting that Simon and I aren't writers because we haven't published a book, I defined the term and stated that when I DO publish a book I will be promoted to 'author', and will join the ranks of folks such as yourself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Hi Maria,

Boy o boy, you've really got it in for Packer.

That there was more than one female corpse at the mortuary was merely a supposition to challenge Stewart's assumption that Stride was alone. We don't know, and it doesn't really matter. Packer identified Stride, and the Senior Assistant Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police recorded the fact.

When did it become a lie?

By the way, Eddowes was at a different mortuary–Golden Lane– which Packer visited on 3rd October.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon

Another reason why I find it hard to beleive Packers story is this:

Given his seemingly strong willingness to tell what he saw that night to whomever would listen, wouldn't he have made darn sure that when White came around he would have proactively told him what he saw (eventhough he said White only poked around and did not ask him any questions about what he saw)?