George Cecil Ives

[lynn cates]

pocketing the difference

Hello Mike. Of course, that would add a new dimension to the police phrase, "Please empty your pockets."

The best.
LC

[Mike Covell]

Hello Phil and Corey. Thanks for the well wishing. I'm gung ho.

And good luck to you too, Phil. Just imagine what a single blurb about Druitt could do, given a right date. It could pull him from the suspects list.

The best.
LC

Dear Diary, Met Druitt today, he looked down, so I gave him my favorite stones to look after, he told me he would return them later, I told him I was going fishing in the Thames, he told me he would swim out.....he never did bring my favorite stones back!

Good luck Lynn, I love the search!!

[lynn cates]

well wishing

Hello Phil and Corey. Thanks for the well wishing. I'm gung ho.

And good luck to you too, Phil. Just imagine what a single blurb about Druitt could do, given a right date. It could pull him from the suspects list.

The best.
LC

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil. Thanks for that. On my end, if I can squeeze out even a snippet about Druitt or Tumblety, or maybe a conjecture about the WC murders, it will repay the effort.

I can hardly wait the 2 weeks until holiday!

The best.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Yes, I will give it a go. Have some other stuff to catch up with whilst "on tour" but I think I have a little time to indulge in a little digging here and there.
Best of luck in the library. That looks like a task and a half.
I will try and concentrate on the Ripper period volume and the "scattered dates" volume...if, and I say if, I can find them!

best wishes

Phil

[corey123]

great

i hope you do go.then maybe you can come up with some more to add to this case maybe take away some of the blur around some of the suspects,if so it may help us better understand there ways and help prove/disprove the suspicions

good luck

[lynn cates]

sundry

Hello Corey. I have little to add to the torso murder discussion. SY regarded them separately; Why? I confess I don't know.

Yes, I plan to have a go at the library in a couple of weeks when my schedule lightens up a bit. Wish me luck.

The best.
LC

[corey123]

yes

yor welcom.i can only imagine your exitement on the issue.and how hard it will be to find more on it.if only the diarys text was availiable on the web.

another thing is im trying to find a connection with the pinchin street torso and the ripper murders.by one ticey little speck of evidence that may alienate the pinchin torso from the other torso murders..maybe you have some thoughts on that??


p.s. have you ever thought of going to veiw the diarys? i believe they are availiable like you said in that library.
yours truly

[lynn cates]

Dr T/"Dr" D

Hello Corey. Thanks. Tumblety is one name I am looking for.

Of course, anything about Druitt is welcome. Ives was a cricket fan and Druitt played cricket and was alleged to be gay. Possibly I can find a snippet that would either exonerate Druitt or else strengthen his candidacy. It is obviously slow, painful work.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

hopes

Hello Phil. Thanks for that. On my end, if I can squeeze out even a snippet about Druitt or Tumblety, or maybe a conjecture about the WC murders, it will repay the effort.

I can hardly wait the 2 weeks until holiday!

The best.
LC

[corey123]

hey lynn

i was thinking today about ives.first of all he was gay was he not??and so is tumblerty supposedly at least curious of homosexuality nature??maybe he has something or two about tumblerty in those diarys??i mean it would cross his two interests:unsolved crimes and gay liberation..just a though.

yours truly

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mike. Thanks.

I am keen on this chap since he was not interested only in unsolved crimes and sex research, but he also was an avid cricket fan and grew up near Winchester. Since he was gay, perhaps he knew something about Druitt's being sacked by Valentine--given, of course, that it was for the most commonly proffered reason.

The best.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I will see what I can come up with. I am going to London shortly and will do some digging there. This sounds a very interesting avenue, as Mike says.

best wishes

Phil

[Mike Covell]

Good luck in your search of his works and diaries Lynn, sounds like an interesting avenue of research.

[lynn cates]

cricket fan

Hello Mike. Thanks.

I am keen on this chap since he was not interested only in unsolved crimes and sex research, but he also was an avid cricket fan and grew up near Winchester. Since he was gay, perhaps he knew something about Druitt's being sacked by Valentine--given, of course, that it was for the most commonly proffered reason.

The best.
LC

[Mike Covell]

Ives on Wiki,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cecil_Ives

[lynn cates]

order

Hello. Here is a description of the secret order founded by Ives.

The Order of Chaeronea was a secret society
Secret society

Secret society is a term used to describe a variety of organizations. Although the exact meaning of the term is disputed, several of the definitions advanced indicate a degree of secrecy and secret knowledge, which might include denying membership or knowledge of the group, negative consequences for acknowledging one's membership, strong ties...
for the cultivation of a homosexual moral, ethical, cutural and spiritual ethos. It was founded by George Cecil Ives
George Cecil Ives

George Ives was a Germany-England poet, writer, penal reformer and early gay rights campaigner....
in 1897, as a result of his realisation that the "Cause" (the end of the oppression of homosexuals) would not be accepted openly in society and must therefore have a means of underground communication. The society is named after the location of the battle
Battle of Chaeronea (338 BC)

The Battle of Chaeronea 338 BC, fought near Chaeronea, in Boeotia, was the greatest victory of Philip II of Macedon. There, Philip defeated the combined forces of Classical Athens and Ancient Thebes and initiated Macedonian hegemony in Greece....
where the Sacred Band of Thebes
Sacred Band of Thebes

The Sacred Band of Ancient Thebes was a troop of picked soldiers, numbering 150 age-structured pairs, which formed the elite force of the Theban army in the 4th century BC....
was finally annihilated in 338 BC.

Nature of the organisation
Ives and other members dated letters and other materials from the year of the Battle of Chaeronea, so that 1899 would be written as C2237. An elaborate system of rituals, ceremonies, a service of initiation, seals, codes, and passwords were used by the members. The Secret Society became a worldwide organisation, and Ives took advantage of every opportunity to spread the word about the "Cause."

The Order, according to Ives' notebooks, had a specific purpose, distinct prescriptions and philosophy, and its particular symbolism: the "sign-word" AMRRHAO and "the seal of the double wreath." The prerequisites of membership are indicated to be "Zeal, Learning and Discipline." The principle of secrecy is conveyed by the metaphor of "The Chain" underlining that one should never reveal any information about the order or its members.

In Ives' words: "We believe in the glory of passion. We believe in the inspiration of emotion. We believe in the holiness of love. Now some in the world without have been asking as to our faith, and mostly we find that we have no answer for them. Scoffers there be, to whom we need not reply, and foolish ones to whom our words would convey no meaning. For what are words? Symbols of kindred comprehended conceptions, and like makes appeal to like."

Members included Charles Kains Jackson
Charles Kains Jackson

Charles Philip Castle Kains Jackson was an English poet closely associated with the Uranian poetry....
, Samuel Elsworth Cottam, Montague Summers
Montague Summers

Augustus Montague Summers was an eccentric England author and clergyman. He is known primarily for his 1928 English translation of the Middle Ages witch hunter's manual, the Malleus Maleficarum, as well as for several studies on witches, vampires, and werewolf, in all of which he professed to believe....
, Laurence Housman
Laurence Housman

Laurence Housman was an English playwright, writer and illustrator.The younger brother of the poet A. E. Housman, Laurence Housman was born in Bromsgrove, Worcestershire....
, John Gambril Nicholson
John Gambril Nicholson

John Gambril Francis Nicholson was an England school teacher, Uranian poet, and an amateur photographer. He was the quintessential Uranian, forming the center of that semi-underground world, and frequently writing introductions for and receiving dedications from his peers....
and Oscar Wilde
Oscar Wilde

Oscar Fingal O'Flahertie Wills Wilde was an Irish people playwright, Irish poetry and author of numerous short stories and one novel. Known for his biting wit, he became one of the most successful playwrights of the late Victorian era in London, and one of the greatest Celebrity of his day....
. It is thought that Charles Robert Ashbee
Charles Robert Ashbee

Charles Robert Ashbee was a designer and entrepreneur who was a prime mover of the English Arts and Crafts movement that took its craft ethic from the works of John Ruskin and its co-operative structure from the socialism of William Morris....
was a member. In his voluminous writings, Ives refers to Walt Whitman
Walt Whitman

Walter Whitman was an United States Poetry of the United States, essayist, journalism, and humanism. He was a part of the transition between Transcendentalism and literary realism, incorporating both views in his works....
as "The Prophet" and used lines from Whitman's poetry in the ritual and ceremony of the Order.

Long believed extinct, the late 1990s saw a semi-successful effort to reconstitute the Order of Chaerona along Freemasonic lines of doctrine, governance and ritual principally undertaken by the Moorish Orthodox Church's Bishop of New Jersey, the Rt Rev. Sotemohk A. Beeyayelel. Dr Beeyayelel was appointed as Grand Master of a newly instituted Grand Lodge of a revived Sovereign Military Order of Chaerona which today has affiliates in New Jersey, Kentucky, and Missouri (USA), the United Kingdom, France and the Republic of Equatorial Guinea and South Africa. The new Order is an affiliate of the Union of Radical Magi.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Order_of_Chaeronea

LC