The Bank Holiday Murders by Tom Wescott (2014)

[Tom_Wescott]

I haven't registered at the other board but visit it from time to time. The Bank Holiday Murders thread seems to have went well beyond "discussion" so I'll just ask this question here as it's easiest.

If the bare facts are right (correct me where i'm wrong) Violinia picked Pizer out of a 12 man lineup. I don't think anybody has argued he got "lucky" by selecting the person who the police just arrested. Beyond who is corrupt, angelic, normal or "upright" what is the explanation for the positive ID itself?

Hi gnote. It was actually a twelve to twenty man line-up (sources differed). As someone pointed out to me in an e-mail, there's a few people on the forums who want to tell me how wrong I am, they just can't tell me how I'm wrong. You're right, no one has come out and said Violina just "got lucky" (who wants to be that guy?), but they've implied it by saying Thick was clean as a whistle and wouldn't have framed Pizer like that. At the moment, there's two versions of the story. There's my version, and then there's the version where Pizer was widely known as Leather Apron but only to Thick - who didn't speak up for almost a week - and where Violina could immediately pick Pizer out of a line-up ran by Thick - by pure luck - and where Pizer's idea of clearing his name is by admitting to being known as Leather Apron.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[gnote]

Hi gnote. It was actually a twelve to twenty man line-up (sources differed). As someone pointed out to me in an e-mail, there's a few people on the forums who want to tell me how wrong I am, they just can't tell me how I'm wrong. You're right, no one has come out and said Violina just "got lucky" (who wants to be that guy?), but they've implied it by saying Thick was clean as a whistle and wouldn't have framed Pizer like that. At the moment, there's two versions of the story. There's my version, and then there's the version where Pizer was widely known as Leather Apron but only to Thick - who didn't speak up for almost a week - and where Violina could immediately pick Pizer out of a line-up ran by Thick - by pure luck - and where Pizer's idea of clearing his name is by admitting to being known as Leather Apron.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thick's credibility (or lack thereof) appears to be a wee bit shall we say a contentious issue? Your view on him is fairly well known but lets stipulate for a moment that he was indeed "clean as a whistle".

- It appears nobody in 1888 or today buys Violina's ID of Pizer
- He could not have got "lucky" and picked the "right guy"

If Violina isn't credible and Thick was pure as snow how/why was there a positive ID in the lineup?

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

How would events have played out if Sergeant Thick had arrested Pizer on the morning of 7th September?

Regards,

Simon

[martin wilson]

Hi Tom

Timothy Donovan? The Lords of Spitalfield?, no, just pure speculation on my part, based on a dim recollection of reading somewhere about the Kray era east end, where some poor soul would be intimidated into going to court as a defence witness.

I'll leave you in peace to answer Mr Wood's important post.

All the best.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi All,

How would events have played out if Sergeant Thick had arrested Pizer on the morning of 7th September?

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon, I confess that your question is well above my head.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Thick's credibility (or lack thereof) appears to be a wee bit shall we say a contentious issue? Your view on him is fairly well known but lets stipulate for a moment that he was indeed "clean as a whistle".

- It appears nobody in 1888 or today buys Violina's ID of Pizer
- He could not have got "lucky" and picked the "right guy"

If Violina isn't credible and Thick was pure as snow how/why was there a positive ID in the lineup?

That's what's called an inconvenient fact for Thick's defenders. If they concede that Thick took advantage of the situation and pointed Violina in Pizer's direction, then Thick's not so clean, and everything else I suggested becomes possible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom

Timothy Donovan? The Lords of Spitalfield?, no, just pure speculation on my part, based on a dim recollection of reading somewhere about the Kray era east end, where some poor soul would be intimidated into going to court as a defence witness.

I'll leave you in peace to answer Mr Wood's important post.

All the best.

I personally find it interesting that the keeper of 35 Dorset Street is chomping at the bit to get a look at Pizer. It's regrettable that he was not allowed this, because I'd love to know how that would have played out. We'll never know, but of all the people in the East End, it happens to be Polly Nichols', Annie Chapman's, and Pearly Poll's final keeper who is claiming to have known Leather Apron, known him as a bad man, and wanted the chance to put him to the fire. If I were one to speculate, I'd say this was Plan A, but when the inspectors refused Donovan's request (possibly because he was not credible in the least), then Plan B was quickly tossed together, that being Violinia. Pure speculation, mind you, but it's an interesting idea.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[gnote]

That's what's called an inconvenient fact for Thick's defenders. If they concede that Thick took advantage of the situation and pointed Violina in Pizer's direction, then Thick's not so clean, and everything else I suggested becomes possible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

If nobody is claiming Violina's ID was credible but at the same time saying Thick had nothing to do with it, the other explanation i see is another policeman telling him to select Pizer.

That does not mean it's out of the question, but clearly Thick had the most to gain. He would have been literally the man who arrested and brought in the ripper. If however Thick is innocent of any wrongdoing somebody there certainly was, and it was not by any means a minor transgression.

[Tom_Wescott]

If nobody is claiming Violina's ID was credible but at the same time saying Thick had nothing to do with it, the other explanation i see is another policeman telling him to select Pizer.

That does not mean it's out of the question, but clearly Thick had the most to gain. He would have been literally the man who arrested and brought in the ripper. If however Thick is innocent of any wrongdoing somebody there certainly was, and it was not by any means a minor transgression.

There was an inspector present, but I see no reason for him to have goaded Violina. Only Thick would have done so.

An interesting development. Ed Stow just became that guy and suggested that Violina "just got lucky". Another shark has been jumped.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[martin wilson]

Hi Tom

The problem is that it's just so easy to think of a reason why Violina went along with it, if his later behaviour is any guide.
The big mystery is why Pizer?

All the best.

[gnote]

Hi Tom

The problem is that it's just so easy to think of a reason why Violina went along with it, if his later behaviour is any guide.
The big mystery is why Pizer?

All the best.

Simple convenience? Maybe they had some other reasons to dislike Pizer we don't know about, and since he was an approximation of the public view of LA they decided to kill two birds with one stone.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom

The problem is that it's just so easy to think of a reason why Violina went along with it, if his later behaviour is any guide.
The big mystery is why Pizer?

All the best.

Why was Pizer targeted? Hard to say. All I know that MIGHT be pertinent is that he was a liberal and a socialist, but not an anarchist (he maintained his Jewish faith).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[martin wilson]

Hi all

I can speculate on why 'somebody'? If you are into brothels, prize fighting, gambling, running the rip gangs, fencing stolen goods and possibly coining, then the last thing you want are all these policeman about.

Excellent choice of words that, convenience. the puzzle is if he did exist, LA sounds like a right villain, so why is there no mention of him before the WM?

All the best.

[Hunter]

If the bare facts are right (correct me where i'm wrong) Violinia picked Pizer out of a 12 man lineup. I don't think anybody has argued he got "lucky" by selecting the person who the police just arrested. Beyond who is corrupt, angelic, normal or "upright" what is the explanation for the positive ID itself?

He could have been coaxed by a corrupt copper...
Or... he could have gone by the much published description... Or... the information published the day before that Pizer had recently been treated for a carbuncle on his neck and this was visible.

[The Good Michael]

That's what's called an inconvenient fact for Thick's defenders. If they concede that Thick took advantage of the situation and pointed Violina in Pizer's direction, then Thick's not so clean, and everything else I suggested becomes possible.

It's doubtful that Thick was clean. Fiona (last name escapes me) talks about him being paid off to do give good character reports for McCarthy and Smith when they caused a ruckus and would have been thrown in the slammer. Johnny Upright sounds like when a big man is called "Tiny".

Mike