The Bank Holiday Murders by Tom Wescott (2014)

[GUT]

Tom, sorry for necromancing this post, was just reading through the thread (belated congrats, and please make Deb write books with you, I would totally buy them *cough*torsomurders*cough*) and had a thought..

If they weren't big earners perhaps they were simply expendable, and cost effective as warning not to do (whatever they'd done) -- perhaps something rife among the working girls, withholding monies, getting too drunk to earn, talking to the cops, whatever.

Perhaps a couple of really heinous "lessons" handed out to these few, less lucrative women actually saved the bosses a bunch of money (or trouble. w/e) in the long run.

The only problem with that theory as see it is that if she was workng regularly Mary would likely be a good little earner, but as seen by her long term [seeming] off the game while with Joe, she MAY have fallen into that category.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, everyone knows this. The next step after proposing a scenario is to find evidence for or against though. You never seem to worry about getting to that step. Just repeating yourself. I'm still unconvinced by your 'anatomist' proposals. When you can explain how an anonymous anatomical specimen gets supplied and dumped with its own clothing and why didn't other doctors recognize any anatomists methods- then that would be interesting.

What I am saying is that definitely two, maybe three of the torso murders (of the four linked by B and H) could not be abortion related. This has all been said before.
I know that you know that murder and dismemberment are not unusual at all, even today.
If you are suggesting there there appears to be nothing that links these four cases, apart from Hebbert and Bond mentioning the method of joint disarticulation was similar if not exactly the same, then I would actually agree.

One point I will pick up on, and not being a medic I am not qualified to give a definite answer is where one of the doctors state that a foetus was removed after death. I personally fail to see how this could have be deduced in 1888

What I am prepared to do is if you e mail me all the medical reports relative to the torsos. I will forward them onto the forensic pathologist and invite him to comment on them.

This will give us all a clearer picture on these torsos as to whether murder can be deduced or death by other means.

One further point you mentioned some of the victims being clothed. I would suggest that if a female was going to to have an abortion or any other back street operation there would be no need for them to get naked. Lifting the clothes up I would suggest would suffice.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[RockySullivan]

elizabeth Jackson was missing a fetus, and when her dismembered turns up a fetus turns up in pickle jar but it's not the one she's missing. Why? What does 1 dismembered pregnant woman - her baby + 1 fetus in a pickle jar equal?

[Debra A]

One point I will pick up on, and not being a medic I am not qualified to give a definite answer is where one of the doctors state that a foetus was removed after death. I personally fail to see how this could have be deduced in 1888

Because there was an inexplicable incision in the uterus; childbirth then, as now ( and make no mistake, Elizabeth would have gone into labour and delivered a 'child' of approx 7 months gestation not a tiny foetus had something been done to make her go into labour) and childbirth distends, scrapes and stretches the vagina, the cervix would have been stretched wide open. All these signs were looked for and were absent. Abortion never was and never is performed by incision into the uterus. Therefore, the logical conclusion was that an incision must have been to remove the child after Elizabeth's death, probably to aid in dismemberment. Perhaps even out of curiosity. I believe other killers have been known to do this.

One further point you mentioned some of the victims being clothed. I would suggest that if a female was going to to have an abortion or any other back street operation there would be no need for them to get naked. Lifting the clothes up I would suggest would suffice.

I was talking about clothing in relation to your idea about these victims being used for anatomical reasons. Bodies used for anatomical demonstration would not be clothed and their bodies would be specially prepared for dissection.
Elizabeth's remains were wrapped in her own clothing and the Whitehall remains included a leg still wearing a woollen stocking.

[RockySullivan]

Debra, do you think it could have been a mistake that it was concluded the fetus did not belong to her? It seems very strange that a different fetus would turn up in a pickle jar no less and I find it hard to believe it wasn't hers. But if it wasn't shouldn't this be a huge a clue about the circumstances of her murder. Doesn't the pickle jar point away from any abortionist. They wouldn't keep fetus in pickle jars would they? I wonder if the killer kept the heads in pickle jars

[Debra A]

Debra, do you think it could have been a mistake that it was concluded the fetus did not belong to her? It seems very strange that a different fetus would turn up in a pickle jar no less and I find it hard to believe it wasn't hers. But if it wasn't shouldn't this be a huge a clue about the circumstances of her murder. Doesn't the pickle jar point away from any abortionist. They wouldn't keep fetus in pickle jars would they? I wonder if the killer kept the heads in pickle jars

Going by memory alone, Rocky-the foetus in the pickle jar was of 4-5 months gestation wasn't it? Whereas Elizabeth was said to be 6-7 months advanced into pregnancy. Perhaps the foetus was ruled out on account of its stage of development or size? Perhaps because of the cord length compared to what was still remaining in Elizabeth's uterus? They didn't note why, so there's no way of knowing. They don't mention the foetus at all in the medical texts.

[Trevor Marriott]

Because there was an inexplicable incision in the uterus; childbirth then, as now ( and make no mistake, Elizabeth would have gone into labour and delivered a 'child' of approx 7 months gestation not a tiny foetus had something been done to make her go into labour) and childbirth distends, scrapes and stretches the vagina, the cervix would have been stretched wide open. All these signs were looked for and were absent. Abortion never was and never is performed by incision into the uterus. Therefore, the logical conclusion was that an incision must have been to remove the child after Elizabeth's death, probably to aid in dismemberment. Perhaps even out of curiosity. I believe other killers have been known to do this.

But in suspicious deaths there are not always logical conclusions, and you shouldnt keep comparing the crimes of modern day killers to those of 1888.

I was talking about clothing in relation to your idea about these victims being used for anatomical reasons. Bodies used for anatomical demonstration would not be clothed and their bodies would be specially prepared for dissection.
Elizabeth's remains were wrapped in her own clothing and the Whitehall remains included a leg still wearing a woollen stocking.

Yes I accept what you say in relation to that specific point.

Well my offer still stands with regards to letting the forensic pathologist review the reports. After all it may throw some more light on all of this and besides it will stop you saying that I am not seeking the truth.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

Comparsions are valid because I am saying it is not unknown for killers to remove a foetus from a womb so it should also be considered in this case as well as the fact that Elizabeth may have died looking to end her pregnancy. What I am opposed to is lumping these four cases altogether as all abortion related or all 'burial dodging anatomist' related or pretending one off domestic killers or serial killers don't dismember and dump bodies or that there aren't some similarities in type of victim as in the Whitechapel cases and possibly some of the mutilation here.
They are four individual cases linked by Hebbert and Bond purely by the mode of disarticulation of the joints.

I pm'd you ages back about the pathologist. Did you get it yet?

[RockySullivan]

Going by memory alone, Rocky-the foetus in the pickle jar was of 4-5 months gestation wasn't it? Whereas Elizabeth was said to be 6-7 months advanced into pregnancy. Perhaps the foetus was ruled out on account of its stage of development or size? Perhaps because of the cord length compared to what was still remaining in Elizabeth's uterus? They didn't note why, so there's no way of knowing. They don't mention the foetus at all in the medical texts.

Thanks debs. 5 months compared to 6 months would be not that far of stretch but they had more info than us so I guess we have to take their word

[Trevor Marriott]

Comparsions are valid because I am saying it is not unknown for killers to remove a foetus from a womb so it should also be considered in this case as well as the fact that Elizabeth may have died looking to end her pregnancy. What I am opposed to is lumping these four cases altogether as all abortion related or all 'burial dodging anatomist' related or pretending one off domestic killers or serial killers don't dismember and dump bodies or that there aren't some similarities in type of victim as in the Whitechapel cases and possibly some of the mutilation here.
They are four individual cases linked by Hebbert and Bond purely by the mode of disarticulation of the joints.

I pm'd you ages back about the pathologist. Did you get it yet?

Yes thanks i have it now and have replied

[martin wilson]

Hi Tom

I have been following your TBHM thread on the other site, and found this on Trove digitised newspapers.

Inquirer and Commercial News 9th February 1887

Championship Prize Fight. Capture Of The Principals.

The east end, an innocent looking Leather Apron (again) and
now I know what the packing cases in Hanbury Street were used for!

All the best.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom

I have been following your TBHM thread on the other site, and found this on Trove digitised newspapers.

Inquirer and Commercial News 9th February 1887

Championship Prize Fight. Capture Of The Principals.

The east end, an innocent looking Leather Apron (again) and
now I know what the packing cases in Hanbury Street were used for!

All the best.

Hi Martin, thanks for that. It's a great thread. We're all getting to soak up the knowledge of the "learned majority". Can't ask for more than that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[martin wilson]

Hi Tom

I did actually have one thought, which you have probably covered, that Violene was 'provided' to Thick, which might explain a lot.

All the best.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom

I did actually have one thought, which you have probably covered, that Violene was 'provided' to Thick, which might explain a lot.

All the best.

That's one possibility, but by whom? He was either suggested to Thick by a third party, discovered by Thick personally, or was a total stranger who presented himself and Thick took advantage of the situation by telling him to pick out Pizer. Unless a firm connection is made between Violinia and Thick or someone known to Thick, I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[gnote]

I haven't registered at the other board but visit it from time to time. The Bank Holiday Murders thread seems to have went well beyond "discussion" so I'll just ask this question here as it's easiest.

If the bare facts are right (correct me where i'm wrong) Violinia picked Pizer out of a 12 man lineup. I don't think anybody has argued he got "lucky" by selecting the person who the police just arrested. Beyond who is corrupt, angelic, normal or "upright" what is the explanation for the positive ID itself?