The Bank Holiday Murders by Tom Wescott (2014)

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom



I've now read right through Paul and John's latest offering and it's very good indeed. You're quite right it's very well written from a historical point of view...and the introduction, as you note, is a real corker...the whole thing is a very competent retelling of the WCM sequence with especial emphasis on the non-canonical victims...I certainly didn't find it an exhausting read at all...however, it didn't excite me with originality the same way your book did...it didn't force me to reconsider things in the same way...and so it won't get the same score your book did...

These things are so subjective though, aren't they?

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave. Yes, it's VERY subjective. For instance, I personally think this book is quite original. Only 9 pages given over to the canonical 5! In a Ripper book? As for espousing new and controversial ideas, that's not really what the authors were going for. Although they did give voice to items (some new, some merely obscure) that will be quite fresh for the majority of their readers. All in all, it's my favorite or 2nd favorite Begg read (along with Facts) and my favorite Bennett read.

But there are precious few books that I call must-haves...and I mean I can count them on my hands...but this has to be one of them in my opinion.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

G'day Tom

I'm also surprised they let her.

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm also surprised they let her.

I'm not, as they still didn't have a confirmed identity on the victim. The only way they could get one was by letting the public see her. Now, once a body was identified, it seems the police were very reticent to let anyone look at the body. And this was probably to their detriment because if someone recognized the body as a woman they'd recently seen - perhaps with a man - they might have had a good witness on their hands.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

But without the police to witness the ID?

Surely they weren't just letting anyone in, to look.

[Tom_Wescott]

But without the police to witness the ID?

Surely they weren't just letting anyone in, to look.

Le Grand took Packer to the mortuary to see Eddowes and Stride and apparently there were no police handy as neither were spoken to until after the viewing. Or Pearly Poll lied the policeman who was there and said she didn't recognize her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

G'day Tom

So the police were there when she ID the body?

[Tom_Wescott]

So the police were there when she ID the body?

I have no idea. I would assume they would be, but then I would quite possibly be wrong. The press would get in there and look, so if the cops were there, they weren't exactly locking the place down. We can't expect that the mortuaries had a police guard year round and the Ripper fury had not started, so it's very likely there was no copper there. All we know is what she says an what made it into the reports.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Mr Lucky]

OK so we're at the point where we either go with the previously accepted dictum (ie Smith being pierced by a blunt instrument) or we consider Tom's well argued proposition that this was an attack which included a vaginal stabbing with an instrument which might have been a bit sharper than that...or indeed might've been merely the sheathed instrument...

And then Tabram being vaginally impaled in a similar way...Tom please advise if you think I'm unfairly representing you...

What do folk think?

All the best

Dave

Hi Cog

Well, you asked us what we think, so if by previously accepted dictum;-

victim 1 - attacked by a group of men, blunt instrument - stick or something similar
victim 2 - stabbed to death by a soldier - dagger
victim 3 - attacked by “jack the ripper”, who was apparently interrupted

I headed this way myself some time ago;-

victim 1 - strangled (causing the head wounds), stabbed in privates, left for dead, regained consciousness some time after.
victim 2 - strangled, stabbed in privates, regained consciousness immediately, stabbed to death
victim 3 - strangled, stabbed in privates, attacker interrupted, "lets prop her up" - attacker panicked - "no you go find a policeman" - 'jack the ripper' started

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lucky. It's interesting you have Smith down as strangled. I thought about that myself but didn't include it in the book because - unlike with Tabram - there are no contemporary sources that hint at it. That's possibly because there's a dirth of information on Smith's injuries. Even more true with Horsnell, who if I'm correct is victim #1 of this particular series. I think the fact that these women - if actually strangled - were not strangled to death, suggests that my 'garrotting' theory is the likeliest.

I'm glad you brought this up about your belief that Smith was strangled. I would say it's either that or the head wound (which Tabram also suffered) that rendered her unconscious.

Edward Stow, on the forums, suggested Smith may not have been unconscious but just hanging around the street for a few hours after her attack. I find this exceptionally unlikely. In fact, I don't buy her timeline at all. This is another reason I didn't mention the strangling possibility. I think Smith was attacked at a time much closer to when she arrived back at her lodgings.

What I'd like to do at some point is speak to three or four doctors about Smith and her injuries and try to get an idea of how much she would have bled out and if it's likely or even possible that she could have been lying or walking around from 1:30 to 4:30 - bleeding all the while - before heading home, only to then walk the half mile to the hospital. Could she have remained conscious? I personally have no idea. If three or four doctors could separately be asked the same question and could agree with each other then we might have some new insights.

While I'm sure that Haslip and Killeen were fine doctors, they were extremely young, and it's safe to say they had not encountered injuries like this before. In Killeen's case, he concluded Tabram had not bore children, when in fact she'd had many. I'm not sure if this can be attributed to inexperience or the internal injuries she suffered.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Lucky. It's interesting you have Smith down as strangled. I thought about that myself but didn't include it in the book because - unlike with Tabram - there are no contemporary sources that hint at it. That's possibly because there's a dirth of information on Smith's injuries. Even more true with Horsnell, who if I'm correct is victim #1 of this particular series. I think the fact that these women - if actually strangled - were not strangled to death, suggests that my 'garrotting' theory is the likeliest.

Hi Tom,

Well, I can see that and you're right to leave it out, really on there no direct evidence of it at all, but as she arrived at the hospital conscious, I don't know if they would even consider checking for it during the PM, I've also considered that from the location of bruising on Nichols, I think the killer uses the same method as Burke - which is very difficult to detect during a PM

I'm glad you brought this up about your belief that Smith was strangled. I would say it's either that or the head wound (which Tabram also suffered) that rendered her unconscious.

the problem with the strangulation/throttling evidence for all four;- Smith ,Tabram, Nichols and Chapman is that there is precious little of it at all, this gets ignored with the standard C5 model of the crimes as Llewellyn is dismissed as a bungler and Phillips' evidence get retro-actively applied to Nichols. however, the stabs in the genital area of the first three victims is a significant connecting factor that cannot be covered up with the C5 paint brush

Edward Stow, on the forums, suggested Smith may not have been unconscious but just hanging around the street for a few hours after her attack. I find this exceptionally unlikely. In fact, I don't buy her timeline at all. This is another reason I didn't mention the strangling possibility. I think Smith was attacked at a time much closer to when she arrived back at her lodgings.

if Smith wasn't strangled, then it could indicate the killing may be considered more as manslaughter than murder. I thought garrotting was very effective!, I'm not sure about Horsnell being a victim of the same killer as the Whitechapel murderer - the Smith to Coles killer, but it's possible

What I'd like to do at some point is speak to three or four doctors about Smith and her injuries and try to get an idea of how much she would have bled out and if it's likely or even possible that she could have been lying or walking around from 1:30 to 4:30 - bleeding all the while - before heading home, only to then walk the half mile to the hospital. Could she have remained conscious? I personally have no idea. If three or four doctors could separately be asked the same question and could agree with each other then we might have some new insights.

I think the strangling/ unconscious may partially account for the time loss. I'm not sure we have enough knowledge of her injuries for anyone now to come to any clear conclusions, but It may be worth looking into. I've had a look in that direction with some contemporary knife wound reports, very interesting so far...

While I'm sure that Haslip and Killeen were fine doctors, they were extremely young, and it's safe to say they had not encountered injuries like this before. In Killeen's case, he concluded Tabram had not bore children, when in fact she'd had many. I'm not sure if this can be attributed to inexperience or the internal injuries she suffered.

I suppose the whole of forensic pathology was still in its infancy, I wonder what chance an ordinary doctor, some one like Killeen, would have had of hearing one of Bond's lectures for example ?

[Barnaby]

Hi Tom,

I know you speak of a "big book," and I'm not exactly sure what you have in mind, but you could easily (with no additional research) sell-out and write a general Ripper book for a lay audience, spin Pearly Poll / landlords into a suspect theory, and perhaps land a book deal from a larger publishing house. You could use these sales to justify an advance. While I love the book, it assumes too much to be read by someone new to the case. Wouldn't it be great if the case material was presented to beginners along with this theory?!

Do you have an agent? I think you are sitting on a fantastic theory that has the added bonus of being realistic. This is a very marketable idea. Unfortunately, ideas are free and someone could scoop you and write a dumbed down suspect book for the masses using your theory. Sure, they'd cite you, but guess who would make the money? Best you do it!

Again, congratulations. May I ask how many months of research/writing this took? Just curious and envious.

[GUT]

G'day Barnaby

Great idea but I'm not sure why you say "sell-out". Nothing wrong with getting the "masses" interested in the Ripper.

[Sunbury]

Great idea but I'm not sure why you say "sell-out". Nothing wrong with getting the "masses" interested in the Ripper.

I'm scared how literal minded and obsessed some people in here are! They may very well reenact the murders to prove their theories! :

[Tom_Wescott]

Signed book giveaway

If any of you have a Goodreads account and would like to enter for a chance to win a free signed copy of the Bank Holiday Murders, I'm giving away 10 copies on the site. If you don't have a Goodreads account, but you love books, you should go get one. It's an awesome site for both readers and authors.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

If any of you have a Goodreads account and would like to enter for a chance to win a free signed copy of the Bank Holiday Murders, I'm giving away 10 copies on the site. If you don't have a Goodreads account, but you love books, you should go get one. It's an awesome site for both readers and authors.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

And this you say NOW - when I´ve already PAYED for my copy...?

Fisherman
deceived