Jack the Ripper and Black Magic: Victorian Conspiracy Theories, Secret Societies and

[Wickerman]

Jon, Im sorry, what you describe to me isnt clear. There is a door inside the archway as well, which would have been closer to McCarthys tuck shop window.

If you can read what looks like 353 written sideways on the property line of that 2 storey dwelling, this is unit 1 & 2, which appears more opposite the space behind Kelly's room.
When Sarah L. said the scream "sounded at our door", then the source of that scream was possibly directly opposite their door - which means the windows to Kelly's room, not Kelly's own door.

[Lechmere]

Given that the ‘Whitechapel Murder Medical Aspect’ file was given the number 93305 and the ‘Whitechapel Murder suggested complicity of Irish Party’ has number 93867, doesn’t this suggest that the Irish Party file was started after the Medical aspect file? And these files were later entered in the ‘General’ section of the ‘Crime’ index? But not in strict order?

The ‘Medical Aspect’ file seems to have been started around 13th November 1888.

What do we think prompted the opening of the ‘Whitechapel Murder suggested complicity of Irish Party’ file?

Could it perhaps have been the application made on 14th December 1888 by Mr Reid QC against George Brodrick, the Warden of Merton College, Oxford and President of the Oxford University Unionist League, for Contempt of Court - the Court being the Special Commission (technically a Court) known as the Parnell Commission?

The application was prompted by a speech made by Mr Brodrick in which he made a slightly clumsy joke at the expense of Home Rulers, linking them to the Whitechapel murderer. He had said:
‘And so we have not only a Home Rule League, which undergraduates of advanced views have been earnestly pressed to join, but also, as I understand, an Oxford branch of the National League, with a Nonconformist minister for its president, which has not yet taken any very active part in organising outrage, so far as I know, but which may yet succeed in attracting the attention of the Parnell Inquiry Commission. We have also already had visits from Mr. H. George, Mr. Hyndman, Mr. Davitt, Mr. Dillon, and Mr. Healy, and my impression is that if the Whitechapel murderer could be identified, he would be invited to lecture by an Oxford club which I could name if I thought proper.’
Needless to say Mr Brodrick was cleared of Contempt of Court.

But isn’t it the most logical explanation that the ‘Whitechapel Murder suggested complicity of Irish Party’ file, tellingly in the ‘General’ section, merely related to the Contempt of Court application against Brodrick?

[Michael W Richards]

Jon, Im sorry, what you describe to me isnt clear. There is a door inside the archway as well, which would have been closer to McCarthys tuck shop window.

Stewart, thank you, and I should have said Irish Party....but in truth my wording is closer to my own opinion.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

Secondly, I think the cry of "murder", something that by the evidence seems to have come from Millers Court near 4am, could well have been uttered by someone in room 13 standing at an open door. The voice was heard as if "at the door" by Sarah, and "faint-as if from the court" by Mrs Prater, indicating to me that the call was not being heard through 3 small breaks in the window.... by Sarah anyway.

Michael.
If you look at the Goads map of Millers Court, you'll see the back portion of McCarthy's shop was more opposite Kelly's side door.



The next unit back from McCarthy's shop were units 1 & 2, where the Gallagher's lived (upstairs No.2), and where Sarah spent the night. The door to this pair of units was more opposite the open space behind Kelly's room, and therefore, where those two broken windows were.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks, Stewart. But who did the suggesting? The police or someone to the police? And do we assume this had to do with Kelly specifically?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

That Whitechapel murder being Kelly

[Stewart P Evans]

Metropolitan Police Crime Index

Metropolitan Police Crime Index, 'Whitechapel murder Suggested complicity of Irish Party' -

[Lechmere]

Quite Tom - conspiratorial speculation of the most ludicrous kind.

PS I would suggest that most of the supposed 'police suspects' were 'imagined' at the time. Rather than being evidence based. So far as we can discern.

[Tom_Wescott]

Ive found it illuminating reading the posts of this thread, particularly the mention that Mary Kellys murder was suspected by contemporary investigators to have been committed by someone connected with the Irish Self Rule movement.

Hmmm...really? There's a contemporary source that unambiguously says the police pursued the theory that Kelly was murdered by someone involved in Irish Home Rule?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

Ive found it illuminating reading the posts of this thread, particularly the mention that Mary Kellys murder was suspected by contemporary investigators to have been committed by someone connected with the Irish Self Rule movement. Something I have openly speculated about here and received chastisements for my wild speculating. Nice to see that my instincts were correct.

There was one point Stewart raised I wanted to address...the alleged row in October that broke a window. Since we have only Barnetts version of how that window was broken, and since we know that there was more than one broken pane in that window closest to the corner and the door, isnt it possible that Barnett broke the pane that was used to open the door purposefully? Do we even know if Mary knew that the spring latch on the back of the door could be accessed by that broken pane?

Secondly, I think the cry of "murder", something that by the evidence seems to have come from Millers Court near 4am, could well have been uttered by someone in room 13 standing at an open door. The voice was heard as if "at the door" by Sarah, and "faint-as if from the court" by Mrs Prater, indicating to me that the call was not being heard through 3 small breaks in the window.... by Sarah anyway.

Cheers all

[Stewart P Evans]

No

Hi,
Was it something I said Stewart?
I guess I have that effect on people with my speculative views, all I said was I no longer view Barnett as a realistic suspect.
I would never have thought I would ever say that.
Regards Richard,

No, not at all Richard. Check what precedes and you will see that I have been posting a bit too much. My own fault really.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Was it something I said Stewart?
I guess I have that effect on people with my speculative views, all I said was I no longer view Barnett as a realistic suspect.
I would never have thought I would ever say that.
Regards Richard,

[Stewart P Evans]

Thank You

Thank you for that most interesting contribution Richard.

I remember now one of the reasons that I left the boards for over a year. That was the time I was wasting writing lengthy and repetitive responses to various posts when I don't actually have the spare time to do that (I'm in trouble again).

I bid you all farewell - I need a break.

[Stewart P Evans]

Do not know...

...
I take your point. You are asking the unanswerable, of course – and you are quite right: we cannot know the explicit details of Barnett’s lodging house; nor its exact domestic arrangements; nor the sleeping habits and patterns of its inhabitants; nor the moral proclivities of those same people.
But since we can’t know these things, we are left with a generalisation – a reasonable one in this case – which is that such places typically offered an overcrowded environment with little or no privacy. In general, it would’ve been next to impossible to keep one’s comings and goings undetected . Whether or not the men he played cards with on the night of Kelly’s death would have lied for his sake – and realistically we have no way of guessing that at this remove; somebody would’ve have noted his movements.
For him actually to have slipped out in the night, killed Kelly and slipped back in to be a realistic possibility, we’d have to assume that any number of men – who may or may not have played cards with him - who saw him leave and return were willing to cover for him.
...

You do not know that it would have been 'impossible to keep one's coming and goings undetected', prostitutes were often able to smuggle men into their beds for the night without the deputy knowing. And, I'll say again, we don't know the arrangements of the New Street lodging house. You do not know that somebody would 'have noted his movements' - throughout the night. He would need only one to say that he had been in bed to corroborate his story. But to say that the person would need to have been awake all night to know he was there the whole time. Merely seeing him go to bed and seeing him in the morning would be enough for some. According to him he played cards until 12.30 am and then went to bed. The murder was committed much later than that.

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,'
As the instigator of Barnett ''Number one suspect'' many years ago, and as this is now being discussed in a rational manner, I feel justified in giving my 2013 opinion.
I am now of the opinion, that Barnett was in no way responsible for any incident, over the years I have moved on to pastures new suspect wise, and feel that her killer was known to her, but someone she knew before Barnett came on the scene.
Do I feel that her killer was Jack the Ripper.?
I must say I have a strong feeling he killed Eddowes , but not Stride, or Nichols/Chapman.
I would say its a strong possibility, that Kate gave her killer, a strong lead to the whereabouts of the person he was looking for , Mary Kelly[ which I doubt was her real name],
The very fact that she lived with a man named Kelly, and McCarthy initially believed Barnett was called Kelly might be the key to Mary being traced.
The motive.
The man responsible for Kelly's death I believe called on her [ or tried to] shortly before her demise, and I believe his motive was to retrieve property belonging to him,its because of this he committed this butchery in the room, as he could then search for the item he wanted .
I have no idea who this man was, but it could be to hazard a guess, the gentleman who escorted her to France, and she absconded back to England with possibly that persons watch, which he wanted back.
Speculation folks , but I have my reasons, at least I have buried my obsession with Joseph Barnett..
Regards Richard.