Jack the Ripper and Black Magic: Victorian Conspiracy Theories, Secret Societies and

[auspirograph]

Thanks

Hello Spiro. Just finished the book cover to cover. Kudos. Everyone needs to read chapter seven.

Hi Lynn,

Thanks for your comments, glad you enjoyed and found the book useful.

I agree, Lynn. Great chapter, in spite of some significant errors. Spiro could have (and might still?) make a whole book of it. As for Red Jim, I didn't know anything about him at all until I read this book.

Tom,

A good 'Ripperologist' does not make flukey remarks that he or she cannot back up with some evidence. You are a significant prat!

Regards
Spiro

A Happy Christmas and peaceful New Year all...

[lynn cates]

pop up

Hello Tom. Funny thing about Red Jim, every time I try investigating something about the case, he pops up.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

I agree, Lynn. Great chapter, in spite of some significant errors. Spiro could have (and might still?) make a whole book of it. As for Red Jim, I didn't know anything about him at all until I read this book.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Red Jim

Hello Tom. It is indeed.

Wish I could get a better fix on Red Jim from that chapter. Is he just a blackmailing silly billy, or is he capable of real violence?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn. I don't have the book in front of me. Is Chapter 7 'Whitechapel Secret Service'?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

ch 7

Hello Spiro. Just finished the book cover to cover. Kudos. Everyone needs to read chapter seven.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Spiro. Thanks for clarifying.

Cheers.
LC

[auspirograph]

Correction

My take on Red Jim is close to your take on spies in general. When I first started researching British spies, Anarcho-Socialists, the Okhrana, and the various Irish physical force groups (incorrectly labelled together as "Fenians"), I assumed that one became a spy for "King and country." Not so, as you rightly point out. Spying could be a very lucrative business and helped its participants live rather lavish lifestyles. Hence, it allowed Frank Millen to live a nice life and dress like a toff--in an astrakhan trimmed coat, no less. And Red Jim did quite well, too.

Allow me to clarify something here.

This isn't my "take on spies in general" of the late Victorian period at all. Most were motivated to work for "King and country" of whichever nation state or ideology they happened to belong to. Le Caron, for instance, was highly motivated in the interests of his Queen and a devotion to his country, though Anderson, his handler, used him for his own partial purposes.

No, it was a few unscrupulous ones, playing off factions against each other for payment which were of concern as they were a law unto themselves. McDermott was one of these characters who had established himself over a period of some twenty years before the Whitechapel murders. Though it can be confirmed he frequented the East End close to the events, he is not known with certainty to be there during the murders.

Though I agree that not all Fenians were part of the physical force movement, Millen is a dark horse.

The surmise that political intrigues infused the Whitechapel murders has been active for some considerable time. Discovery of the Littlechild letter naming Tumblety and emergence of Special Branch inquiries, which also have been known of for some time, confirmed Scotland Yard documented consideration that Jack the Ripper was perhaps politically motivated.

It is a position that is generally ignored in standard Ripper texts and which Anderson, Macnaghten and Swanson were at pains to avoid disclosure of. It referred to the political arrangements, Scotland Yard organization and the identity of Jack the Ripper during the events. My book simply outlines these lines of inquiry that up to now, have not been published or examined fully before.

[lynn cates]

Red Jim

Hello Spiro. No, I don't wish to get bogged down either. It's just that I noted your inclusion of Red Jim McDermott in chapter 7. This chap intrigues me since, as you indicate, he pops up constantly--especially when one endeavours to research Irish political history during the "Autumn of Terror."

My take on Red Jim is close to your take on spies in general. When I first started researching British spies, Anarcho-Socialists, the Okhrana, and the various Irish physical force groups (incorrectly labelled together as "Fenians"), I assumed that one became a spy for "King and country." Not so, as you rightly point out. Spying could be a very lucrative business and helped its participants live rather lavish lifestyles. Hence, it allowed Frank Millen to live a nice life and dress like a toff--in an astrakhan trimmed coat, no less. And Red Jim did quite well, too.

Given these reflections, I ruled Red Jim out as the slayer of MJK. But--and again for the reason you gave in your book--I ruled him in as "Blotchy Man."

But if he were a known party to violence--rather than a mere blackmailer--I may need to examine him more closely.

If you would care to discuss by PM, I'd be delighted. Please be assured of a courteous discussion irrespective of your position.

Cheers.
LC

[auspirograph]

Hello Spiro. I've begun reading your book and am keen on your discussions of Llewelyn (White) Winter and Red Jim McDermott.

2 quick questions if I may:

1. Did you turn up the identity of "Miss Worth" in conjunction with Winter?

2. What were the specifics of Red Jim's violent events?

Thanks!

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Thanks for taking the time to read the book and for your interesting questions. However, the untenable, uninformed and off-topic comments made by your associate Maria Birbili and others prevents me from answering in depth. Which I suppose was the intention all along.

It is difficult to discuss these issues on the Whitechapel murders openly over the internet but I do appreciate your interest. Perhaps you may like to contact me by PM instead.

What I can say though is, let's not get bogged down with specifics isolated from their Victorian context. Sir Robert Anderson claimed it as, "a definitely ascertained fact" that the Ripper's identity was known to Scotland Yard. A position that is not supported by internal official documentation. Your questions concern matters that were regarded as politically 'unofficial' hence little to support their specific determination.

Cheers
Spiro

[lynn cates]

questions

Hello Spiro. I've begun reading your book and am keen on your discussions of Llewelyn (White) Winter and Red Jim McDermott.

2 quick questions if I may:

1. Did you turn up the identity of "Miss Worth" in conjunction with Winter?

2. What were the specifics of Red Jim's violent events?

Thanks!

Cheers.
LC

[Rob Clack]

Did you come to that conclusion before or after Ripperologist sent you and Rob a fat check for winning the Beadle prize with your Rose Mylett piece?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Debs donated her fat cheque to the Children’s Heart Surgery Fund, at Leeds General Infirmary.

Rob

[mariab]

apologies for the brief highjacking

Rob, Paul Begg assured me it's in the index (which is a weird place to put it anyway).
I'm NOT gonna look right now (at www.amazon.com), as I'm in Les 2 Alpes, sipping a latte outside on a couch with tons of cushions on a friend's terrasse, which luxuriously features internet access.
And I'm STILL dealing with French bureaucracy (pertaining to not paying for my skipass), and I got some amazing gloves from my sponsor, can't wait to try them tomorrow.

[Rob Clack]

I know, that's why I'm not happy with the attribution having taken place ONLY in the index.

It's not in the index either or the notes.

Rob

[mariab]

When the author of the book writes a caption for a photograph as "Ghostwriter Frank S. Stuart, who may have authored the Maybrick dirary in the 1950s" you have to read that as the authors opinion and no one elses.

I know, that's why I'm not happy with the attribution having taken place ONLY in the index.

As I recall Simon's find was slightly differently worded and not the same as Mike or Mark's find? I may be wrong but that is the impression I got and that MP sure made a debut inthat article.

Debs, I agree with most of what you're saying.
If anyone wishes to clear the Simon Wood vs. Mike Covell/Mark Ripper newspaper report find about an MP and an unnamed suspect referring to Le Grand, it's all in the Probability of Kozminsky casebook thread to read.

Pertaining to the debate about the importance and utility of Ripperological mags, I've submitted some questions pertaining to this (and to other aspects of Ripperological meta-debate) to Howard Brown over at the other forum, and he's gonna submit these questions (among other questions, proposed by other posters) to the participants in the Philly conference which is running right now. Thus soon there might be some interesting debate about all this in the other forum, particularly pertaining to “Ripperology and academia“, which is a subject that interests me personally, as I'd be personally interested in “reconciling“ these 2 fields.