The Complete History of Jack the Ripper

[The Good Michael]

Then you missed out on one of the best books in the field.

Excuse me! I read all of the Diary books and Cornwell's. That's like... 4 to 1 in my favor.

Mike

[Magpie]

So . . . any criticism? Anything Sugden got wrong or overlooked?

Thanks,

--J.D.

One minor thing that Sugden got wrong--he claimed that Druitt was a member of the MCC at the time of his death, but Druitt had let his membership lapse the year before.

A minor error (unless of course you are a Druittist).

[Doctor X]

Funny you should mention that, because I just re-read that section. Not that I would have noticed--I am a "Newbie" to serious study of the case.

However, I have to disagree with this claim:

As explained in the previous chapter, the extent of the injuries inflicted seems to have been directly related to the amount of time at the disposal of the killer. More, Macnaghten's contention that they progressively increased throughout the series is only true if the Tabram and Stride slayings are excluded from the toll. There are good grounds, however, for including both. And if Martha Tabram is included as a Ripper victim Macnaghten's argument collapses completely for this first killing was as ferocious as anything that followed it, (Sugden, 387).

In a word: "No!" Tabram's stabbing was not nearly as ferocious as abdominal exploration and removal of organs all the way to flaying of the face. I am not convinced Tabram was Jack's work--but I am not convinced she was not either. However, her case does not contradict the pattern regarding time available to the kill or progressive ferocity.

Not a big criticism; however, since serial killers do generally progress I think it is important to determine whether or not Tabram is a potential "first" kill or not. If her murder is the "as ferocious as anything that followed it," then where are the previous murders. Sugden does consider it probable that the lurid canonical victims were not his first.

--J.D.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Excuse me! I read all of the Diary books and Cornwell's. That's like... 4 to 1 in my favor.

Mike

I really hope that was ironi or tongue in cheek.

All the best

[Dan Norder]

In a word: "No!" Tabram's stabbing was not nearly as ferocious as abdominal exploration and removal of organs all the way to flaying of the face.

Hi Doctor X,

Sugden is arguing that it isn't necessarily true that the ferocity increased in each case. The only one Tabram should be compared to then for this argument is Nichols, and all the features you mention as actions more severe than what happened to Tabram were absent from that particular case (with the possible exception of "abdominal exploration," but if there had been any it was very minor compared to Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly).

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

The only criticism I have is Sugden's pro Abberline stance. His conclusions about Abberline may well be correct, but he puts too much faith in our Inspector in my opinion.

I definitely agree with that.

I also think the book now feels somewhat outdated in some respects (along with several others). Furthermore, I have always found it to be a rather dry and heavy read. Sugden lacks a lot of personality as an author and his language is quite dull.
Indeed, the book remains one of the classics and one of the more factually reliable out there, but it's a book I seldom turn to these days.

All the best

[Suzi]

Thanks! Obviously I am new HERE, but any other recommendations?

--J.D.

Right Dr X-
As far as quality reading goes the 'MUST HAVES' are ............'The Jack The Ripper A-Z' Begg,Fido and Skinner, Jack the Ripper -The Facts- Begg ....
FORGET anything Cornwell/Diary/Sickert/Lewis Carroll related!!!!!)

....The Sugden is great in its way....(but have lost it....sorry Philip S.... in my latest bookcase sortout!.......it's HERE...............somewhere!!!!!!!) eeeeeeeek!

The Ultimate JTR Sourcebook by Stewart Evans and Keith Skinner is great too

Get reading! and when you get into suspect based stuff...........let me know!.... I can go on forever!!!!

Suzi x

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

My indispensable JtR book is "The Ultimate Sourcebook"—chock-full of cold hard facts which, although I doubt it was the authors' intention, amply demonstrate the pig's ear the police and politicians managed to make of the WM.

Paul Begg's "The Facts", though riddled with niggling errors and an annoying lack of source references in places, I find equally indispensable.

Both books are falling apart through constant reference, so I'm looking forward to replacing them with updated editions.

Sad to say that Philip Sugden's book is gathering dust on my shelf. Apart from some sterling research (I'm thinking here of Ostrog) it's a fairly dull read with far too many casual assumptions for my liking.

I still have a great affection for Don Rumbelow's "Complete JtR", because when it first came out it was truly groundbreaking and as 'complete' as such books can be at any given moment in time.

My signed copy went missing (I obviously loaned it to a retard), but I recently learned it had been snapped up for a fiver by Alan Sharp (Ash). Good to know it's in safe hands.

"To Simon," Don scrawled, "who knows!!!" If only, Don. If only.

Suspect-based books, no matter how compelling, all fail the burden of proof, so I tend to ignore them. 'Case Closed' must qualify as the most extravagant example of self-publishing in the history of the written word, and as for the 'Diary'—well, the less said, the better.

Regards,

Simon

[Stephen Thomas]

As far as quality reading goes the 'MUST HAVES' are ............'The Jack The Ripper A-Z' Begg,Fido and Skinner, Jack the Ripper -The Facts- Begg ....

The Ultimate JTR Sourcebook by Stewart Evans and Keith Skinner is great too

Methinks you missed one out there Suzi

[Doctor X]

Thanks for the recommendations everyone!!

--J.D.

[EricCarter]

In a word: "No!" Tabram's stabbing was not nearly as ferocious as abdominal exploration and removal of organs all the way to flaying of the face. I am not convinced Tabram was Jack's work--but I am not convinced she was not either. However, her case does not contradict the pattern regarding time available to the kill or progressive ferocity.

Not a big criticism; however, since serial killers do generally progress I think it is important to determine whether or not Tabram is a potential "first" kill or not. If her murder is the "as ferocious as anything that followed it," then where are the previous murders. Sugden does consider it probable that the lurid canonical victims were not his first.

--J.D.[/QUOTE]


The point or argument that Sturgen was a rebuttal to Macnaghten's statement that the crimes grew more ferocious as they went on, his point was the only way that Macnaghten's statement is true is to discount Tabram and Stride. Tabram's being slightly more ferocious than Nichols and Stride's being the least ferocious of all of them.

Tabram was stabbed 39 times and according to the inquest the first was enough to cause death. The abdominal cuts to Nichols were exploratory at best. The Tabram killing was much more ferocious.


Eric

[perrymason]

Tabram's murder meets the days of the week/month timing requirements, the Holiday status, the time of day, the profile of a homeless victim, the general area and the deserted location and knife as the murder weapon.

All alleged victims die on Weekends or Weekend attached Holidays, all are after midnight, all are within a square mile in dark quiet spots, and all, excluding Mary, didnt have a rented room the night they are killed. Only Liz and Mary are attacked with a knife, the other 3 are assumed subdued by hand or some kind of improvised garrot or choke hold before the knife is used.

But...

-All the Canonicals had their throats cut to kill them.
-All the Canonicals with stabbing wounds showed them as minority knife wounds within the killings.
-None showed obvious or overt violence or anger in the wounds or acts themselves, save the facial marks on Kate and the entire Millers Court murder
-No Canonical was killed by 2 different weapons, one smaller and pocket sized.
- No Canonical murder suggests a military suspect seen with the deceased before the murder, or near the location of one after or during the murder.

And in the case of Martha Tabram, at 2am there is a military man waiting for another military chum with a street prostitute near or in George Yard. And at 3:30am Alfred Crow likely saw Martha dead on the landing.

Stabbing deaths are not unusual...opening women's abdomens after almost cutting their heads off is.

Best regards

[Chris]

All alleged victims die on Weekends or Weekend attached Holidays, ...

The trouble is that even if the fact that Saturday was a working day for most ordinary Eastenders in 1888 is ignored, it's not true that Nichols was killed "on a Weekend or Weekend attached Holiday".

[perrymason]

The trouble is that even if the fact that Saturday was a working day for most ordinary Eastenders in 1888 is ignored, it's not true that Nichols was killed "on a Weekend or Weekend attached Holiday".

Hi Chris, I suppose I should have said a weekend being a Friday, Saturday or Sunday, which is what my intention was,...so..fair disclaimer.

Its true that many workers worked 6 and 7 day shifts, its also true that workers were working shifts that ended around the times of the murders,.. including policemen, which makes the fact that no Canonical Murder takes place on a Monday night, Tuesday night or Wednesday night, or even Thursday night noteworthy. 2 are Friday mornings and 3 are weekends.

I also believe that to assume there were no local jobs that weren't a form of labor and 5 day work weeks, or even clerical in nature, would be a mistake.

The days the deaths fall on, the time of day, and the locations suggest a local working man, but they dont suggest he had a commitment to work 6 or 7 days a week.

Best regards Chris.

[EricCarter]

Tabram's murder meets the days of the week/month timing requirements, the Holiday status, the time of day, the profile of a homeless victim, the general area and the deserted location and knife as the murder weapon.

All alleged victims die on Weekends or Weekend attached Holidays, all are after midnight, all are within a square mile in dark quiet spots, and all, excluding Mary, didnt have a rented room the night they are killed. Only Liz and Mary are attacked with a knife, the other 3 are assumed subdued by hand or some kind of improvised garrot or choke hold before the knife is used.

But...

-All the Canonicals had their throats cut to kill them.
-All the Canonicals with stabbing wounds showed them as minority knife wounds within the killings.
-None showed obvious or overt violence or anger in the wounds or acts themselves, save the facial marks on Kate and the entire Millers Court murder
-No Canonical was killed by 2 different weapons, one smaller and pocket sized.
- No Canonical murder suggests a military suspect seen with the deceased before the murder, or near the location of one after or during the murder.

And in the case of Martha Tabram, at 2am there is a military man waiting for another military chum with a street prostitute near or in George Yard. And at 3:30am Alfred Crow likely saw Martha dead on the landing.

Stabbing deaths are not unusual...opening women's abdomens after almost cutting their heads off is.

Best regards

Which is all more or less true. But, taking the fact that Tabram was killed just weeks prior to Nichols and that the stabs to Tabram where in the neck and torso it shows a progression in his modus operandi.

And all you show in the Tabram case is ah hour and a half between when she went off with the soldier and when she was likely first seen dead. More than enough time to get done with said soldier and then meet her murderer.

One thing though, how can you say 'there was no obvious or overt violence or anger in the wounds or acts themselves'? It was willful murder it doesn't get any more obvious or overtly violent.

Eric