Ripper Confidential by Tom Wescott (2017)

[Tom_Wescott]

Lets not forget, a constable's beat is rigidly timed, he can't just wander around at his own pace. He needs to be at specific intersections at given times in order to complete his beat in the required 15 or 30 minutes, or whatever time is assigned to that beat.
To say "he's guessing" gives the wrong impression, he passed that spot at 35 minutes passed the hour, every hour of every night, all week. So, he may be a minute or two out either way at various points on his beat, but Inspectors also do the circuit to check if the beat times are being adhered to, PC Smith knows this. This is why his estimate can be relied on, because of the need for him to be on time on every circuit of his beat.

In theory, this is correct. In practice, it's something different. They were people, not robots, and what is in question is not when Smith saw Stride but when he THINKS he saw Stride when asked some time after the fact.

-man was a police suspect immediately following the murder, the next day, in the Monday morning press his description was published by police; on 1st Oct., then 19th, Oct, then again 12th Nov.

The following is a description of a man stated to have been seen in company with the woman murdered in Berner-street, and for whom the police are looking:-Age 28; height 5ft. 8in.; complexion dark; no whiskers; black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; carried a newspaper parcel; was of respectable appearance.

It's quite possible the police had witnesses who saw him who did not appear at the inquest, they knew more than we know, and in their view he was the immediate suspect, along with BS-man.

I can't argue with that. The police knew more than we do and there was much THEY didn't know. We're working from scraps. What I meant to say was that the police did not view Smith's man with the same suspicion they initially viewed Black Bag Man and later Schwartz's men.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

I confess your reasoning is lost on me. If I'm with someone for dinner and a walk then it won't stand to reason that I might be alone before or after? If Stride was picking up clients then we might expect to see her with different men, or approaching and speaking to different men, or - in fact - standing alone. What Schwartz witnessed was her approaching and speaking to a man. So, perhaps, did Smith and others.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

If you read over the statement given to police by Schwartz, or more correctly, Swanson's summary of it, we see it differs slightly in wording. The police version reads:
"...he turned her around, and threw her down..." that line is not in the press version.
I think it suggests Stride was standing with her back to the street, she was facing the yard. This was the clue that she was not by herself.
When BS-man staggered past, he is not intending to talk to the back of her head, he had to turn her around to verbally attack her, he throws her down.

Readers have always assumed she is standing there, in a gateway, at night, in the dark, in a street where she is a stranger - but no-one seems to consider - why?
She was never seen anywhere that night walking by herself, whether you agree which couple in Berner St. included Stride, she at least was with someone. But now all of a sudden she is thought to be by herself, for no apparent reason.

I am saying BS-man passed the gateway and saw Stride talking to a man in the shadows of the gateway. He took her to be soliciting with him, and accosted her just as Schwartz walked past, but Schwartz's attention was focused on the assault, he failed to notice the man stood in the shadows, he only saw BS-man attack Stride, and was more concerned about his own survival, and fled.

[Tom_Wescott]

If you read over the statement given to police by Schwartz, or more correctly, Swanson's summary of it, we see it differs slightly in wording. The police version reads:
"...he turned her around, and threw her down..." that line is not in the press version.
I think it suggests Stride was standing with her back to the street, she was facing the yard. This was the clue that she was not by herself.
When BS-man staggered past, he is not intending to talk to the back of her head, he had to turn her around to verbally attack her, he throws her down.

Readers have always assumed she is standing there, in a gateway, at night, in the dark, in a street where she is a stranger - but no-one seems to consider - why?
She was never seen anywhere that night walking by herself, whether you agree which couple in Berner St. included Stride, she at least was with someone. But now all of a sudden she is thought to be by herself, for no apparent reason.

I am saying BS-man passed the gateway and saw Stride talking to a man in the shadows of the gateway. He took her to be soliciting with him, and accosted her just as Schwartz walked past, but Schwartz's attention was focused on the assault, he failed to notice the man stood in the shadows, he only saw BS-man attack Stride, and was more concerned about his own survival, and fled.

You're putting a third man on the street without any supportive evidence. As for why Stride might have been alone in Dutfield's Yard, the obvious answer is she was soliciting men coming into the club, or passing by.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

... They were people, not robots, and what is in question is not when Smith saw Stride but when he THINKS he saw Stride when asked some time after the fact.

In other words, PC Smith was guessing...

You previously remarked that PC Smith couldn't have known what the time was, he was guessing there also,...

And yet, when it comes to the parcel that Parcel-man was carrying - suddenly PC Smith isn't guessing anymore, in fact you take his 18 inch as verbatim, as if he had measured it. It can't be anything else, it had to be 18 inch because Smith said so.

Put yourself in his place, when asked to guess the size of that woman's handbag who you walked passed yesterday. How likely are you to truly get it right?
PC Smith caught a glimpse of a newspaper parcel at midnight, and you think he got the measurement spot on?

Packer said he wrapped the grapes in a pkg, just like Fish & chips they wrapped in newspaper.
Newspaper was the common means of wrapping all kinds of produce on market stalls or private businesses, even as late as 60 years ago. They didn't have wrapping paper, they couldn't afford it.
Packer didn't hand the man a fistful of grapes, he wrapped them and handed the man the pkg of newspaper, Stride & Parcel-man walked up to the club, and crossed over where PC Smith saw them together about 12:35.

[Wickerman]

You're putting a third man on the street without any supportive evidence. As for why Stride might have been alone in Dutfield's Yard, the obvious answer is she was soliciting men coming into the club, or passing by.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

It wasn't her patch, all witnesses said they had never seen her before, she was brought there. And now everybody think her client just left her without getting his 4d worth?
PC Smith placed him there, and now everybody thinks he left "without any supportive evidence" - who saw him leave?

[Fogelpa]

I don't have anything to add to this discussion now, but I would like to take this opportunity to say thank you Tom for your two books that I really enjoyed

[The Rookie Detective]

There is no evidence to support the idea that Stride was soliciting on the night she was murdered.
Her chosen attire, the recent move area from her abusive relationship, the talk by Barnardo in the kitchen of the lodging house, the sighting of her openly kissing and hugging a man (her lover) outside the bricklayers arms at 11pm,
All of these details combined would suggest she was on a date, either waiting for someone in the club, or someone who lived in the yard itself.
She was alleged to have been heard saying "no, not tonight" which also implies that one of her regulars may have recognised her and assumed she was touting when she wasn't.
I believe the reason the killer wasn't seen is because he may have been a member of the club and so the killers route be we took him onto Berber Street itself.

RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

H Andrew,

I am put in mind of the Sesame St question - "Which of these things is not like the other", and my answer would be 12:50/51: Board school corner, Long Overcoat Man.

IMHO the woman that Brown saw was not Stride. JMO.

Cheers, George

Hi George.

Did Brown see the couple who ended up speaking to the press and Fanny Mortimer? That seems to be a crucial question.

[Abby Normal]

If you read over the statement given to police by Schwartz, or more correctly, Swanson's summary of it, we see it differs slightly in wording. The police version reads:
"...he turned her around, and threw her down..." that line is not in the press version.
I think it suggests Stride was standing with her back to the street, she was facing the yard. This was the clue that she was not by herself.
When BS-man staggered past, he is not intending to talk to the back of her head, he had to turn her around to verbally attack her, he throws her down.

Readers have always assumed she is standing there, in a gateway, at night, in the dark, in a street where she is a stranger - but no-one seems to consider - why?
She was never seen anywhere that night walking by herself, whether you agree which couple in Berner St. included Stride, she at least was with someone. But now all of a sudden she is thought to be by herself, for no apparent reason.

I am saying BS-man passed the gateway and saw Stride talking to a man in the shadows of the gateway. He took her to be soliciting with him, and accosted her just as Schwartz walked past, but Schwartz's attention was focused on the assault, he failed to notice the man stood in the shadows, he only saw BS-man attack Stride, and was more concerned about his own survival, and fled.

Shadow man lol. cmon wick.

[Wickerman]

There is no evidence to support the idea that Stride was soliciting on the night she was murdered.
Her chosen attire, the recent move area from her abusive relationship, the talk by Barnardo in the kitchen of the lodging house, the sighting of her openly kissing and hugging a man (her lover) outside the bricklayers arms at 11pm,
All of these details combined would suggest she was on a date, either waiting for someone in the club, or someone who lived in the yard itself.
She was alleged to have been heard saying "no, not tonight" which also implies that one of her regulars may have recognised her and assumed she was touting when she wasn't.
I believe the reason the killer wasn't seen is because he may have been a member of the club and so the killers route be we took him onto Berber Street itself.

RD

Doesn't the fact she was seen with a man at the Bricklayer Arms suggest he was her date, the description of Parcel-man is similar enough to the Bricklayer's Arm's man.
So, who is this woman, with a man dressed in a long coat seen by Brown, who incidentally doesn't seem to be wearing the all important flower.
Stride wore the flower at the Bricklayer's Arms, she wasn't wearing the flower when Brown saw her, but she was wearing it when PC Smith saw her.
How to explain this discrepancy?

Brown didn't see Stride, he saw the Standing Couple on the corner by the Board School.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't understand your meaning.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I take it you accept as fairly accurate, the timing in this report ...

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact.

This would put Mortimer in view of much of what was stated by Schwartz. Can you explain why she does not appear to have seen any of it?

Those 10 minutes at her door only take us to about 12:55. She must have already seen Goldstein if it is assumed she locks up right at that point, although she is quoted as saying she were at her door "nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this morning". So, we might suppose she sees Goldstein at about 12:53, if we assume her sense of the time to be correct.

On the other hand, if we go with Smith's timings, these events all go back about 7 or 8 minutes. Then we get ...

... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

... occurring at 12:45. Perhaps she did see Israel Schwartz.

[GBinOz]

Hi George.

Did Brown see the couple who ended up speaking to the press and Fanny Mortimer? That seems to be a crucial question.

Hi Andrew,

IMO the most likely conclusion is that Brown saw that couple, not Stride.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Lets not forget, a constable's beat is rigidly timed, he can't just wander around at his own pace. He needs to be at specific intersections at given times in order to complete his beat in the required 15 or 30 minutes, or whatever time is assigned to that beat.
To say "he's guessing" gives the wrong impression, he passed that spot at 35 minutes passed the hour, every hour of every night, all week. So, he may be a minute or two out either way at various points on his beat, but Inspectors also do the circuit to check if the beat times are being adhered to, PC Smith knows this. This is why his estimate can be relied on, because of the need for him to be on time on every circuit of his beat.

That's interesting to ponder because I've assumed that given Smith's 25-to-30-minute beat, the time he passed various points would 'wonder around', from night to night, the more so the longer into the night. Is it possible that Smith was supposed to be at the top Berner St at 1am each night, but he was a little 'behind time' that night, so chose not mention it? When the fixed-duty officer went off-shift at 1pm, was the beat officer then handed full responsibility for that area? Should Smith have been where Lamb was at 1am?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I confess your reasoning is lost on me. If I'm with someone for dinner and a walk then it won't stand to reason that I might be alone before or after? If Stride was picking up clients then we might expect to see her with different men, or approaching and speaking to different men, or - in fact - standing alone. What Schwartz witnessed was her approaching and speaking to a man. So, perhaps, did Smith and others.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

If Stride had been picking up clients, where is the money?

James Brown: As I passed them I heard the woman say, "No, not to-night, some other night."

You think these are the words of a woman soliciting?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If you read over the statement given to police by Schwartz, or more correctly, Swanson's summary of it, we see it differs slightly in wording. The police version reads:
"...he turned her around, and threw her down..." that line is not in the press version.
I think it suggests Stride was standing with her back to the street, she was facing the yard. This was the clue that she was not by herself.
When BS-man staggered past, he is not intending to talk to the back of her head, he had to turn her around to verbally attack her, he throws her down.

According to the report, the talking had already commenced by the time she is turned around and thrown down. The order of events is stop, talk, attempt to pull into street, turn around, throw down. You seem to want to change this to; stop, turn around, talk, attempt to pull into street, throw down - to fit your Shadow Man theory.

Readers have always assumed she is standing there, in a gateway, at night, in the dark, in a street where she is a stranger - but no-one seems to consider - why?
She was never seen anywhere that night walking by herself, whether you agree which couple in Berner St. included Stride, she at least was with someone. But now all of a sudden she is thought to be by herself, for no apparent reason.

Some do consider why. Others will ask themselves why Schwartz would have lied, and being unable to answer their own question, will lack the curiosity to consider why Stride might have been there, alone. Still others think Schwartz's story is bullshit, so there is nothing to consider.

I am saying BS-man passed the gateway and saw Stride talking to a man in the shadows of the gateway. He took her to be soliciting with him, and accosted her just as Schwartz walked past, but Schwartz's attention was focused on the assault, he failed to notice the man stood in the shadows, he only saw BS-man attack Stride, and was more concerned about his own survival, and fled.

... & then Schwartz walked away ...

Doesn't seem like he was the least bit terrified.