Ripper Confidential by Tom Wescott (2017)

[Tom_Wescott]

Red flags should be raised when we read that "Mortimer's accuracy" is being preferred, to the statement of a beat constable.

I would wholeheartedly agree if not for the fact that Mortimer's black bag man came forward to corroborated her. Shame Smith's parcel man didn't do the same. In any event, I don't prefer one over the other. They're both equally there. It's how we interpret them that matters.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom,

I don't wish to dismiss James Brown. I think it's possible that he correctly identified Liz Stride whether there was one young couple or two. I just don't see how it can be claimed that the young couple that Mortimer talked to couldn't have been the couple that Brown saw on the grounds that they went home at 12:30, when we know that Mortimer talked to them after 1:00. If they were in the area after 1:00, then they could also have been in the area at 12:45 or 12:50.

Everybody was home at 1am. But cries of 'murder' and running feet outside your window tends to make people curious. Within minutes, there was a large crowd outside Dutfield's Yard. Among this crowd were the young woman and Fanny, who spoke to each other and then reporters.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

I would wholeheartedly agree if not for the fact that Mortimer's black bag man came forward to corroborated her. Shame Smith's parcel man didn't do the same. In any event, I don't prefer one over the other. They're both equally there. It's how we interpret them that matters.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Mortimer couldn't give a time when she saw Goldstein, and Parcel-man was a genuine police suspect. We can speculate that he left Stride after Smith saw them together, or that Parcel-man took her into the yard, which could provide the reason she was standing there, she was not alone.
Parcel-man, in this scenario, is the killer.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Tom,

I don't wish to dismiss James Brown. I think it's possible that he correctly identified Liz Stride whether there was one young couple or two. I just don't see how it can be claimed that the young couple that Mortimer talked to couldn't have been the couple that Brown saw on the grounds that they went home at 12:30, when we know that Mortimer talked to them after 1:00. If they were in the area after 1:00, then they could also have been in the area at 12:45 or 12:50.

The motive for displacing witnesses in time and/or space, regarding the Stride murder, is always about one thing - Israel Schwartz.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Everybody was home at 1am. But cries of 'murder' and running feet outside your window tends to make people curious. Within minutes, there was a large crowd outside Dutfield's Yard. Among this crowd were the young woman and Fanny, who spoke to each other and then reporters.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

The Echo sweethearts report:

From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.

"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate.

This young woman lived in Berner St. What about her young man? Did she meet him where Berner St meets Commercial Road, because he too lived in Berner St (or perhaps Fairclough St), or did he live some distance away?

What is clear from this report is that this was a 'walking couple', whereas the other couple "had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises".

The walking couple said nothing to indicate that they "were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered". [Mortimer]

I cannot see the point of merging these two couples into one, other than to eliminate witnesses who were in a position to see or hear some of what Schwartz claimed to witness.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I would wholeheartedly agree if not for the fact that Mortimer's black bag man came forward to corroborated her. Shame Smith's parcel man didn't do the same. In any event, I don't prefer one over the other. They're both equally there. It's how we interpret them that matters.

Okay, so Mortimer hears Smith pass at a time between 12:40 and 12:45. Let's assume that is true. Let's also assume Brown does see Stride at the board school corner, and later than the 12:45 recorded by both the Times and the Daily Telegraph. Shall we say 12:50? So, are these are Stride's locations and 'companions'?...

12:42/43: Berner St, near the club, with Parcel Man
12:46/47: Dutfield's Yard gateway, alone (?)
12:50/51: Board school corner, Long Overcoat Man
12:55/56: Murder location, murderer

Can you explain all the moving around, in a short space of time?
Did I get the murder time about right?
When does Goldstein pass by - before or after the murder?

[GBinOz]

12:42/43: Berner St, near the club, with Parcel Man
12:46/47: Dutfield's Yard gateway, alone (?)
12:50/51: Board school corner, Long Overcoat Man
12:55/56: Murder location, murderer

H Andrew,

I am put in mind of the Sesame St question - "Which of these things is not like the other", and my answer would be 12:50/51: Board school corner, Long Overcoat Man.

IMHO the woman that Brown saw was not Stride. JMO.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Yet this sequence ignores Stride walking up Berner St. with a man, who then buy's grapes from Packer.
The man, now carrying a parcel of grapes is seen by PC Smith with Stride at about 12:35
Two men, both carrying parcels, both seen with Stride, both about the same time 12:30-35.
PC Smith confirms Packer's story, up to that point.

The all important 'flower' was not noticed by Brown, neither was a man with a long coat seen by anyone else.
We have a standing couple, and previously, a walking couple, neither the twain shall meet.

[Tom_Wescott]

The motive for displacing witnesses in time and/or space, regarding the Stride murder, is always about one thing - Israel Schwartz.

I don't understand your meaning.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Mortimer couldn't give a time when she saw Goldstein, and Parcel-man was a genuine police suspect. We can speculate that he left Stride after Smith saw them together, or that Parcel-man took her into the yard, which could provide the reason she was standing there, she was not alone.
Parcel-man, in this scenario, is the killer.

No, she couldn't, and it's understandable why. She had no idea the timing would be significant. Likewise, PC Smith could only guess at the timing. I don't see when/how Parcel Man became a 'genuine police suspect'. The police were far more interested in Black Bag Man and Schwartz's men.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Okay, so Mortimer hears Smith pass at a time between 12:40 and 12:45. Let's assume that is true. Let's also assume Brown does see Stride at the board school corner, and later than the 12:45 recorded by both the Times and the Daily Telegraph. Shall we say 12:50? So, are these are Stride's locations and 'companions'?...

12:42/43: Berner St, near the club, with Parcel Man
12:46/47: Dutfield's Yard gateway, alone (?)
12:50/51: Board school corner, Long Overcoat Man
12:55/56: Murder location, murderer

Can you explain all the moving around, in a short space of time?
Did I get the murder time about right?
When does Goldstein pass by - before or after the murder?

That's not a lot of movement. It's all within several yards. I'm fluid on Smith/Parcel man. It may have happened a bit earlier than that (Mortimer did not say she saw Smith, after all). She's in the gateway of Dutfield's Yard but is pulled out and pushed away. It makes sense she might move away from the sight. She is seen shortly thereafter at the board school corner by Brown, and found dead a little later in Dutfield's Yard, where she had either led her killer or was led by him.

I wrote RC several years ago and believe I did a pretty good job of putting everything in context then. I've forgotten more than I remember about the minutia, but I spent a LONG time working all that stuff out and digging up as many sources as possible. More sources than have appeared in any book before or since. Those sources make a more accurate timeline possible, and once the work is done, we find there's no logical reason to dismiss ANY of the witnesses the police found viable. It's a mystery to me why anyone would want to do that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Yet this sequence ignores Stride walking up Berner St. with a man, who then buy's grapes from Packer.

LOL. Packer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

... Likewise, PC Smith could only guess at the timing. I don't see when/how Parcel Man became a 'genuine police suspect'. The police were far more interested in Black Bag Man and Schwartz's men.

Yours truly,
Tom Wescott

Lets not forget, a constable's beat is rigidly timed, he can't just wander around at his own pace. He needs to be at specific intersections at given times in order to complete his beat in the required 15 or 30 minutes, or whatever time is assigned to that beat.
To say "he's guessing" gives the wrong impression, he passed that spot at 35 minutes passed the hour, every hour of every night, all week. So, he may be a minute or two out either way at various points on his beat, but Inspectors also do the circuit to check if the beat times are being adhered to, PC Smith knows this. This is why his estimate can be relied on, because of the need for him to be on time on every circuit of his beat.

Parcel-man was a police suspect immediately following the murder, the next day, in the Monday morning press his description was published by police; on 1st Oct., then 19th, Oct, then again 12th Nov.

The following is a description of a man stated to have been seen in company with the woman murdered in Berner-street, and for whom the police are looking:-Age 28; height 5ft. 8in.; complexion dark; no whiskers; black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; carried a newspaper parcel; was of respectable appearance.

It's quite possible the police had witnesses who saw him who did not appear at the inquest, they knew more than we know, and in their view he was the immediate suspect, along with BS-man.

I don't think they showed any interest in Goldstein, after he came forward, but they did for the BS-man described by Schwartz.

[Wickerman]

... She's in the gateway of Dutfield's Yard but is pulled out and pushed away. It makes sense she might move away from the sight.

Stride was not seen alone at any time that night, from her being at the Bricklayer's Arms at 11:00 pm, onwards until she is found dead at 1:00 am.
Why should she be alone in Dutfields Yard?

[Tom_Wescott]

Stride was not seen alone at any time that night, from her being at the Bricklayer's Arms at 11:00 pm, onwards until she is found dead at 1:00 am.
Why should she be alone in Dutfields Yard?

I confess your reasoning is lost on me. If I'm with someone for dinner and a walk then it won't stand to reason that I might be alone before or after? If Stride was picking up clients then we might expect to see her with different men, or approaching and speaking to different men, or - in fact - standing alone. What Schwartz witnessed was her approaching and speaking to a man. So, perhaps, did Smith and others.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott