Patricia Cornwell - Walter Sickert - BOOK 2

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

youve got to be kidding. And you have issues with Druitt and Lech??? LOL

Blanch say he visited Sickert on the 16th , no big mystery here .Sickert may well have left for france the next day, which would explain his wife saying he was in France for 2 weeks in her 21st letter.

(FISHY1118)



Sickert may well have left for france the next day

(FISHY1118)



Is that a fact or a supposition or a speculation?

And since you obviously enjoy analysing other people's writing styles, would you explain your use of the word 'well'?

No one would argue that Sickert could have left the next day, although it's obviously very unlikely.

But why do you use the word 'well'?


his wife saying he was in France for 2 weeks in her 21st letter.

(FISHY1118)


Where did she mention two weeks?

How do you know that the letter is dated the 21st?

Have you seen the original?

[Abby Normal]

What part of ''Evidence/Proof didnt you quite understand ? , all you have provided is a short biography on Walter Sickert and his travels abroad!!!. If i wanted that i would have just google searched it myself , No No No youll have to come up with something better. .....


Let me help you out with what you cant find .

1. A date specifically that shows ''6th Sept 1888'' on the letter his mother wrote claiming Walter, herself and Bernard were in France together by the pool painting. Seeings how he travelled abroad every summer it may well have been 1887, 1889 . Show proof it was infact 1888.


''At some point (probably August) Sickert wrote from St ValZry to the French painter Jacques-Emile Blanche telling him he had come to 'this nice little place' for a rest.''



Now the Whitechapel murderer had 5 victims -- & ''5 victims only'', -- his murders were

(1) 31st August, '88. Mary Ann Nichols -- at Buck's Row -- who was found with her throat cut -- & with (slight) stomach mutilation.
(2) 8th Sept. '88 Annie Chapman -- Hanbury St.; -- throat cut -- stomach & private parts badly mutilated & some of the entrails placed round the neck.
(3) 30th Sept. '88. Elizabeth Stride -- Berner's Street -- throat cut, but nothing in shape of mutilation attempted, & on same date
Catherine Eddowes -- Mitre Square, throat cut & very bad mutilation, both of face and stomach.
9th November. Mary Jane Kelly -- Miller's Court, throat cut, and the whole of the body mutilated in the most ghastly manner -

So we have Sir Melville Macnaghten 5 victims only , most of the the police at that time were also of the opinion Mary Anne Nichols was the first ripper victim not the person that was murdered on the the 7th Aug 1888 .So indeed Sickert could have spent nearly all of Aug 1888 in France then return befor the morning of 31st Aug to kill Nichols

Chapman was murdered on the 8th Sept, Blanch say he visited Sickert on the 16th , no big mystery here .Sickert may well have left for france the next day, which would explain his wife saying he was in France for 2 weeks in her 21st letter. Close but no cigar on that one either . Remember its proof that he was in France on the 8th when chapman was killed.


''On 30 September the Ripper caused a terrible sensation when the bodies of Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were found, murdered within hours of each other. A day or two later Sickert painted (or finished) 'The October Sun' showing a shop-front in St ValZry. By the 4 October he was back in London. A postscript to this holiday abroad occurs in the diary of Daniel HalZvy, a friend of Degas and the Sickerts, who wrote on 28 October, 'This summer Sickert came to see Mama' (almost certainly visiting her in Paris)''.




This summer ???? how long is European summer ? , 4 th October he was back in London , where is the ''proof'' he was in France on the 30th sept ? is there a date of the 1st or 2nd of Oct 1888 on that painting ? . Again you havent provided was was first asked , and that is proof that sickert was on French soil when the WM murders were committed .If ,and it seems to be the case the authors of these books and letters dont show proof by exact dates then you shouldnt be quoting from them .

I think youd better re- evaluate your ''well founded'' to read ''Speculation and Circumstancial''

Walter Sickert , remains a suspect untill proven otherwise ,just as many other on the long list.

youve got to be kidding. And you have issues with Druitt and Lech??? LOL

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

What part of ''Evidence/Proof didnt you quite understand ? , all you have provided is a short biography on Walter Sickert and his travels abroad!!!. If i wanted that i would have just google searched it myself , No No No youll have to come up with something better. .....


Let me help you out with what you cant find .

1. A date specifically that shows ''6th Sept 1888'' on the letter his mother wrote claiming Walter, herself and Bernard were in France together by the pool painting. Seeings how he travelled abroad every summer it may well have been 1887, 1889 . Show proof it was infact 1888.


''At some point (probably August) Sickert wrote from St ValZry to the French painter Jacques-Emile Blanche telling him he had come to 'this nice little place' for a rest.''



Now the Whitechapel murderer had 5 victims -- & ''5 victims only'', -- his murders were

(1) 31st August, '88. Mary Ann Nichols -- at Buck's Row -- who was found with her throat cut -- & with (slight) stomach mutilation.
(2) 8th Sept. '88 Annie Chapman -- Hanbury St.; -- throat cut -- stomach & private parts badly mutilated & some of the entrails placed round the neck.
(3) 30th Sept. '88. Elizabeth Stride -- Berner's Street -- throat cut, but nothing in shape of mutilation attempted, & on same date
Catherine Eddowes -- Mitre Square, throat cut & very bad mutilation, both of face and stomach.
9th November. Mary Jane Kelly -- Miller's Court, throat cut, and the whole of the body mutilated in the most ghastly manner -

So we have Sir Melville Macnaghten 5 victims only , most of the the police at that time were also of the opinion Mary Anne Nichols was the first ripper victim not the person that was murdered on the the 7th Aug 1888 .So indeed Sickert could have spent nearly all of Aug 1888 in France then return befor the morning of 31st Aug to kill Nichols

Chapman was murdered on the 8th Sept, Blanch say he visited Sickert on the 16th , no big mystery here .Sickert may well have left for france the next day, which would explain his wife saying he was in France for 2 weeks in her 21st letter. Close but no cigar on that one either . Remember its proof that he was in France on the 8th when chapman was killed.


''On 30 September the Ripper caused a terrible sensation when the bodies of Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were found, murdered within hours of each other. A day or two later Sickert painted (or finished) 'The October Sun' showing a shop-front in St ValZry. By the 4 October he was back in London. A postscript to this holiday abroad occurs in the diary of Daniel HalZvy, a friend of Degas and the Sickerts, who wrote on 28 October, 'This summer Sickert came to see Mama' (almost certainly visiting her in Paris)''.




This summer ???? how long is European summer ? , 4 th October he was back in London , where is the ''proof'' he was in France on the 30th sept ? is there a date of the 1st or 2nd of Oct 1888 on that painting ? . Again you havent provided was was first asked , and that is proof that sickert was on French soil when the WM murders were committed .If ,and it seems to be the case the authors of these books and letters dont show proof by exact dates then you shouldnt be quoting from them .

I think youd better re- evaluate your ''well founded'' to read ''Speculation and Circumstancial''

Walter Sickert , remains a suspect untill proven otherwise ,just as many other on the long list.

I already had the impression that checking one's inbox here sometimes involves having an experience similar to what it would be like to visit a lunatic asylum.

Your post to me above has to be one of the craziest messages I have ever received.

As you are evidently not satisfied with my very detailed history of Sickert's holidaying in France, none of which required any original research by me - as it is all available online - I suggest you take the matter up with:

(1) his biographer, Wendy Baron

(2) Bonhams

(3) Richard Shone

(4) jmenges, a moderator, who posted a similar account relating to Sickert's whereabouts during the period in which the murders took place, posted five minutes before mine.

(5) Michael Palin, who purchased Sickert's 'October Sun' and has stated that it was painted in October 1888, an opinion shared by many art experts.


Let me help you out with what you cant find .

1. A date specifically that shows ''6th Sept 1888'' on the letter his mother wrote claiming Walter, herself and Bernard were in France together by the pool painting.


I'm not a researcher in the sense that one does original research; I'm what you might call a reviewer. I review the evidence.

I presume that Richard Shone saw the original letter.

I suggest that if the letter, or the report of the date on the letter, has been invented or falsified, then Patricia Cornwell - who has spent $7 million on trying to prove that Sickert committed the murders - would by now be gleefully proclaiming that.
But nothing has so far been heard from her.
I don't know whether you're suggesting that someone has made up the fact that that letter was written on the 6th of September.



Let me help you out with what you cant find .


I do not need your help and, as I said, I don't do original research.
I would be interested in seeing the original, but I haven't yet.
I have found enough to exonerate Sickert.
I do not need to see the original letter in order to do that.
So far as I am aware, you are the only person who has actually questioned whether that letter exists or whether the date on it it has been correctly reported.



I noticed that when I mentioned the art world, you dismissed it is as irrelevant.

It obviously is not, since Sickert was an artist.

Art experts and his biographers are obviously the people who know most about this subject.

So far as I am aware, you are the first person to insinuate that art experts would falsify the date on an historic letter.

I suggest you write to Shone and ask for a copy of the original letter.


Again you havent provided was was first asked , and that is proof that sickert was on French soil when the WM murders were committed



I quote Richard Shone:




there is a drawing [by Sickert] dated 4 August made at a Hammersmith music- hall. No further London drawings occur until 4 October. It has long been known that Sickert was abroad that summer, following his annual custom of being in or near Dieppe, a town that the Sickert family knew well and where they had many friends. The second murder (31 August, Mary Ann Nichols) and the third (8 September, Annie Chapman) took place when Sickert, his mother and his brother Bernhard were at St ValZry-en-Caux along the coast west of Dieppe. On 6 September Mrs Sickert wrote to a friend in England from St ValZry saying that her sons Walter and Bernhard were there swimming and painting (a letter unknown to Cornwell). At some point (probably August) Sickert wrote from St ValZry to the French painter Jacques-Emile Blanche telling him he had come to 'this nice little place' for a rest.
According to Cornwell this is the only evidence she could find that Sickert was abroad during these two months. But on 17 September Blanche wrote to his father that he had visited Walter and his family at St ValZry on the day before (16 September).
On 21 September Sickert's wife Ellen, in London, wrote to her brother-in-law that Sickert was in France for some weeks with 'his people'.
On 30 September the Ripper caused a terrible sensation when the bodies of Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were found, murdered within hours of each other. A day or two later Sickert painted (or finished) 'The October Sun' showing a shop-front in St ValZry. By the 4 October he was back in London.



Following the reaction to my comment that one can reasonably deduce from the evidence that Druitt was in Dorset when the first murder took place, I realise that what I'm about to write involves an element of risk.

It is more than reasonable to deduce from the evidence we have that Sickert was in France when the first two murders took place - and very probably in France when the double murder took place.

It is not reasonable to say based on the evidence that he could have been the murderer.

Now some people might say that doesn't prove that he didn't commute between London and Dieppe and commit the murders.
That would have involved three return trips between France and England, and returning from England on 30 September to paint the October Sun and then leaving a couple of days later to return to England.

That is not credible.

I suggest that no one here would consider that to be a reasonable hypothesis in the event that he himself were the person who had been on holiday.

Does anyone here seriously imagine that the police, while conducting an investigation and having been tipped off that Sickert might have committed the murders, on learning what we have learned about his whereabouts, would not eliminate him as a suspect?

In order for Sickert to have been the murderer, we would also have to believe that, although he was enjoying himself swimming and painting on 6 September, he then - presumably on the following day - travelled to England, committed the Hanbury St murder, returned later that same day to France, and the following day was back with his mother and brother painting and swimming again, without their having noticed his absence, and of course without anyone having noticed him in the East End.

(Alternatively, we have to accuse his mother of being part of a conspiracy to allow her son to commit the murders and be acquitted in the eyes of posterity.)

The question is: why would he have done that?

The only answer I can think of is that he would have done it in order to satisfy the suspicions of investigators more than a century later.

[FISHY1118]

Not so fast!

I would like to see a gracious - or even ungracious - acknowledgement from the member who challenged me that what I said about Sickert being in France during the murders is well-founded and not, as insinuated, unsupported.

What part of ''Evidence/Proof didnt you quite understand ? , all you have provided is a short biography on Walter Sickert and his travels abroad!!!. If i wanted that i would have just google searched it myself , No No No youll have to come up with something better. .....


Let me help you out with what you cant find .

1. A date specifically that shows ''6th Sept 1888'' on the letter his mother wrote claiming Walter, herself and Bernard were in France together by the pool painting. Seeings how he travelled abroad every summer it may well have been 1887, 1889 . Show proof it was infact 1888.


''At some point (probably August) Sickert wrote from St ValZry to the French painter Jacques-Emile Blanche telling him he had come to 'this nice little place' for a rest.''



Now the Whitechapel murderer had 5 victims -- & ''5 victims only'', -- his murders were

(1) 31st August, '88. Mary Ann Nichols -- at Buck's Row -- who was found with her throat cut -- & with (slight) stomach mutilation.
(2) 8th Sept. '88 Annie Chapman -- Hanbury St.; -- throat cut -- stomach & private parts badly mutilated & some of the entrails placed round the neck.
(3) 30th Sept. '88. Elizabeth Stride -- Berner's Street -- throat cut, but nothing in shape of mutilation attempted, & on same date
Catherine Eddowes -- Mitre Square, throat cut & very bad mutilation, both of face and stomach.
9th November. Mary Jane Kelly -- Miller's Court, throat cut, and the whole of the body mutilated in the most ghastly manner -

So we have Sir Melville Macnaghten 5 victims only , most of the the police at that time were also of the opinion Mary Anne Nichols was the first ripper victim not the person that was murdered on the the 7th Aug 1888 .So indeed Sickert could have spent nearly all of Aug 1888 in France then return befor the morning of 31st Aug to kill Nichols

Chapman was murdered on the 8th Sept, Blanch say he visited Sickert on the 16th , no big mystery here .Sickert may well have left for france the next day, which would explain his wife saying he was in France for 2 weeks in her 21st letter. Close but no cigar on that one either . Remember its proof that he was in France on the 8th when chapman was killed.


''On 30 September the Ripper caused a terrible sensation when the bodies of Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were found, murdered within hours of each other. A day or two later Sickert painted (or finished) 'The October Sun' showing a shop-front in St ValZry. By the 4 October he was back in London. A postscript to this holiday abroad occurs in the diary of Daniel HalZvy, a friend of Degas and the Sickerts, who wrote on 28 October, 'This summer Sickert came to see Mama' (almost certainly visiting her in Paris)''.




This summer ???? how long is European summer ? , 4 th October he was back in London , where is the ''proof'' he was in France on the 30th sept ? is there a date of the 1st or 2nd of Oct 1888 on that painting ? . Again you havent provided was was first asked , and that is proof that sickert was on French soil when the WM murders were committed .If ,and it seems to be the case the authors of these books and letters dont show proof by exact dates then you shouldnt be quoting from them .

I think youd better re- evaluate your ''well founded'' to read ''Speculation and Circumstancial''

Walter Sickert , remains a suspect untill proven otherwise ,just as many other on the long list.

[jmenges]

I don't believe Cornwell was able to obtain a profile of Sickert's DNA to compare with the mtDNA found on the samples she submitted for testing, and those samples had been contaminated, showing a mixture of single profile donors.

JM

[Aethelwulf]

Out of interest, does anyone know if the DNA analysis (mitochondrial DNA) was limited by the quality of the sample from letters, or the profile she got for Sickert?

[jmenges]

Bump

JM

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Since this is a Druitt thread, lets move any further Sickert discussion to this thread:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-media/books/non-fiction/10501-patricia-cornwell-walter-sickert-book-2/page16

JM

Not so fast!

I would like to see a gracious - or even ungracious - acknowledgement from the member who challenged me that what I said about Sickert being in France during the murders is well-founded and not, as insinuated, unsupported.

[jmenges]

And in her ebook ‘Chasing the Ripper’ she suggests he could have been responsible for the murder of Cora Crippen.

JM

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

From show notes I put together several years ago:

****
Sickert was most likely in France on the day Annie Chapman was murdered, and "maybe" in France for the Nichols murder, but in London for the Double Event and Mary Kelly. A timeline incorporating letters and sketches used in order to place him:

August 4th- London- Hammersmith Music Hall Sketches
August 31- Mary Ann Nichols
September 6th- France (mother’s letter)
September 8- Annie Chapman
September 16- France (letter from Emile Blanche)
17th September letter she attempts to tie to Sickert – why?
September 21- France (letter from his wife) “for some weeks”
September 22- returning to London? Whistler’s letter to his sister-in-law
Cornwell accuses WS with the Jane Beetmore murder on 22 September in Birtley 300 miles North of London
September 28- London- Sam Collins Music Hall sketches
September 30- Double Event
Day after the Double Event- finished a painting of a café called ‘the October Sun’
October 4- London- Sam Collins Music Hall Sketches
October 5- London- Sam Collins Music Hall Sketches
October 8- London- Sam Collins Music Hall Sketches
November 9- Mary Kelly
***
Of course placing Sickert in France for the Chapman murder is a big problem for Cornwell which is why she falls back on the ease of transportation to and from. And the Beetmore killing is an odd thing for her to include given he was probably in route from France to London on the day of that murder.

****

JM

And let's not forget that she also accused Sickert of having committed the Camden Town murder, the murder of 8 year old John Gill in Bradford, as well as the murder of a girl near Newcastle.

She claimed that Sickert could have murdered a total of some 20 people.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Were not talking about the art world tho are we ? or cornwell , were talking you providing proof that Sickert was in France during the the Ripper murders.

So again Good luck , ill be waiting for it . So far its a ''fact'' you havent produce it yet .

Sickert used to holiday in Europe, mainly France, in August.
The first time he holidayed in Dieppe was in 1879.
There is a photograph of him bathing there in August 1920.

According to Wendy Baron, his biographer, Sickert

arrived in Dieppe on 1 August 1887
was in Dieppe in early August 1888
in August 1889, he met Degas and Gauguin in Paris
was in Dieppe from August to October 1890
was in Dieppe in August 1894.


Sickert used the evocative title Londra Benedetta for several prints and drawings, but it was especially apposite in the case of this unusual and complex interior. He explained the subject in a letter to the American painter Nan Hudson, written in late July or August 1907 just before he left for his annual summer visit to Dieppe...

(Bonhams - Walter Richard Sickert A.R.A. (British, 1860-1942) )



But what of the overriding question, much more important than her portrait of Sickert as a chilling psychopath? Where exactly was he when the six murders took place between 7 August and 9 November 1888? ... there is a drawing [by Sicker] dated 4 August made at a Hammersmith music- hall. No further London drawings occur until 4 October. It has long been known that Sickert was abroad that summer, following his annual custom of being in or near Dieppe, a town that the Sickert family knew well and where they had many friends. The second murder (31 August, Mary Ann Nichols) and the third (8 September, Annie Chapman) took place when Sickert, his mother and his brother Bernhard were at St ValZry-en-Caux along the coast west of Dieppe. On 6 September Mrs Sickert wrote to a friend in England from St ValZry saying that her sons Walter and Bernhard were there swimming and painting (a letter unknown to Cornwell). At some point (probably August) Sickert wrote from St ValZry to the French painter Jacques-Emile Blanche telling him he had come to 'this nice little place' for a rest.
According to Cornwell this is the only evidence she could find that Sickert was abroad during these two months. But on 17 September Blanche wrote to his father that he had visited Walter and his family at St ValZry on the day before (16 September).
On 21 September Sickert's wife Ellen, in London, wrote to her brother-in-law that Sickert was in France for some weeks with 'his people'.
On 30 September the Ripper caused a terrible sensation when the bodies of Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were found, murdered within hours of each other. A day or two later Sickert painted (or finished) 'The October Sun' showing a shop-front in St ValZry. By the 4 October he was back in London. A postscript to this holiday abroad occurs in the diary of Daniel HalZvy, a friend of Degas and the Sickerts, who wrote on 28 October, 'This summer Sickert came to see Mama' (almost certainly visiting her in Paris).

(Richard Shone, Verdict as open as ever, Spectator, 09 November 2002)

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

So far, it's a fact that although you're supposed to be a superintendent, you can't keep a civil tongue.

Sickert used to holiday in Europe, mainly France, in August.

The first time he holidayed in Dieppe was in 1879.
There is a photograph of him bathing there in August 1920.

According to Wendy Baron, his biographer, Sickert

arrived in Dieppe on 1 August 1887
was in Dieppe in early August 1888
in August 1889, he met Degas and Gauguin in Paris
was in Dieppe from August to October 1890
was in Dieppe in August 1894.


Sickert used the evocative title Londra Benedetta for several prints and drawings, but it was especially apposite in the case of this unusual and complex interior. He explained the subject in a letter to the American painter Nan Hudson, written in late July or August 1907 just before he left for his annual summer visit to Dieppe...
(Bonhams - Walter Richard Sickert A.R.A. (British, 1860-1942) )



But what of the overriding question, much more important than her portrait of Sickert as a chilling psychopath? Where exactly was he when the six murders took place between 7 August and 9 November 1888? ... there is a drawing [by Sicker] dated 4 August made at a Hammersmith music- hall. No further London drawings occur until 4 October. It has long been known that Sickert was abroad that summer, following his annual custom of being in or near Dieppe, a town that the Sickert family knew well and where they had many friends. The second murder (31 August, Mary Ann Nichols) and the third (8 September, Annie Chapman) took place when Sickert, his mother and his brother Bernhard were at St ValZry-en-Caux along the coast west of Dieppe. On 6 September Mrs Sickert wrote to a friend in England from St ValZry saying that her sons Walter and Bernhard were there swimming and painting (a letter unknown to Cornwell). At some point (probably August) Sickert wrote from St ValZry to the French painter Jacques-Emile Blanche telling him he had come to 'this nice little place' for a rest.
According to Cornwell this is the only evidence she could find that Sickert was abroad during these two months. But on 17 September Blanche wrote to his father that he had visited Walter and his family at St ValZry on the day before (16 September).
On 21 September Sickert's wife Ellen, in London, wrote to her brother-in-law that Sickert was in France for some weeks with 'his people'.
On 30 September the Ripper caused a terrible sensation when the bodies of Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were found, murdered within hours of each other. A day or two later Sickert painted (or finished) 'The October Sun' showing a shop-front in St ValZry. By the 4 October he was back in London. A postscript to this holiday abroad occurs in the diary of Daniel HalZvy, a friend of Degas and the Sickerts, who wrote on 28 October, 'This summer Sickert came to see Mama' (almost certainly visiting her in Paris).

(Richard Shone, Verdict as open as ever, Spectator, 09 November 2002)

[jmenges]

From show notes I put together several years ago:

****
Sickert was most likely in France on the day Annie Chapman was murdered, and "maybe" in France for the Nichols murder, but in London for the Double Event and Mary Kelly. A timeline incorporating letters and sketches used in order to place him:

August 4th- London- Hammersmith Music Hall Sketches
August 31- Mary Ann Nichols
September 6th- France (mother’s letter)
September 8- Annie Chapman
September 16- France (letter from Emile Blanche)
17th September letter she attempts to tie to Sickert – why?
September 21- France (letter from his wife) “for some weeks”
September 22- returning to London? Whistler’s letter to his sister-in-law
Cornwell accuses WS with the Jane Beetmore murder on 22 September in Birtley 300 miles North of London
September 28- London- Sam Collins Music Hall sketches
September 30- Double Event
Day after the Double Event- finished a painting of a café called ‘the October Sun’
October 4- London- Sam Collins Music Hall Sketches
October 5- London- Sam Collins Music Hall Sketches
October 8- London- Sam Collins Music Hall Sketches
November 9- Mary Kelly
***
Of course placing Sickert in France for the Chapman murder is a big problem for Cornwell which is why she falls back on the ease of transportation to and from. And the Beetmore killing is an odd thing for her to include given he was probably in route from France to London on the day of that murder.

****

JM

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Were not talking about the art world tho are we ? or cornwell , were talking you providing proof that Sickert was in France during the the Ripper murders.

So again Good luck , ill be waiting for it . So far its a ''fact'' you havent produce it yet .

So far, it's a fact that although you're supposed to be a superintendent, you can't keep a civil tongue.

[FISHY1118]

I don't need any luck.

It is well-known in the art world, where Cornwell has become a laughing stock.

And that's a fact.

Were not talking about the art world tho are we ? or cornwell , were talking you providing proof that Sickert was in France during the the Ripper murders.

So again Good luck , ill be waiting for it . So far its a ''fact'' you havent produce it yet .