The Missing Evidence - New Ripper Documentary

[PaulB]

They certainly do, I have been involved in court cases where the defence brings in their own expert witness to counter evidence given by a prosecution expert. Because, you see, experts are the only witnesses allowed to give opinion in evidence, and that does not always correspond.

I was indulging in a moment of innocent and, I had hoped, obvious levity.

[Stewart P Evans]

Forgive me...

I was indulging in a moment of innocent and, I had hoped, obvious levity.

Forgive me Paul, I'm sometimes far too serious for my own good. Seen in context it is very funny.

[Lechmere]

These and more were reproduced and used in the documentary.
The coroner's summing up was based on the testimony he heard - if some of the testimony was false then his summing up would not reflect what happened.

Mizen's actions are consistent with his statement being correct.

Of course the ever ready Swanson reported that Cross discovered the body at 3,45

Gut - the reason some reports don't have Mizen b mentioning being wanted by a policeman is that some are truncated.

[Lechmere]

Mizen...
Didn't ask their names
Carried on knocking up
Wasn't surprised to find Neil there
Didn't mention the Carmen to Neil - or seemingly anyone else

[GUT]

Mizen...
Didn't ask their names
Carried on knocking up
Wasn't surprised to find Neil there
Didn't mention the Carmen to Neil - or seemingly anyone else

Which might all go to make Mizen a better suspect than Cross.

[Stewart P Evans]

Reported

...
Of course the ever ready Swanson reported that Cross discovered the body at 3,45
...

It was reported by Inspector Spratling, in his report on the day of the murder, that PC Neil found the body at 3.45.

[Stewart P Evans]

Various reports...

...
Gut - the reason some reports don't have Mizen b mentioning being wanted by a policeman is that some are truncated.

That is your opinion only - and you would say that wouldn't you.

The various reports in different newspapers require close scrutiny. They vary, they sometimes contradict and sometimes they change when the reporter is obviously making a précis of his notes. However, a revealing factor that Mizen was being queried on his actions is in The Times report of 4 September where it states, 'When Cross spoke to witness [Mizen] he was accompanied by another man, and both of them afterwards went down Hanbury-street. Cross simply said he was wanted by a policeman, and did not say anything about a murder having been committed. He [Mizen] denied that before he went to Buck's-row he continued knocking people up.'

The reason the 'Lechmere-ites' labour this point is to try and prove Cross lied. They fail miserably as we see by the almost universal dismissal of their ideas by their peers.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

It's intriguing to me that in an age when there were not many accurate public clocks and few people owned accurate pocket watches that, according to official testimony, we find Robert Paul walking up Buck’s Row on his way to work; Charles Cross standing by Polly Nichols' body; PC Neil discovering Polly Nichols' body; PC Thain being signalled by PC Neil; and PC Mizen encountering Cross and Paul 300 yards away at the corner of Bakers Row and Old Montague Street all at exactly 3.45 am.

Regards,

Simon

[Stewart P Evans]

Synchronise Watches...

Hi All,
It's intriguing to me that in an age when there were not many accurate public clocks and few people owned accurate pocket watches that, according to official testimony, we find Robert Paul walking up Buck’s Row on his way to work; Charles Cross standing by Polly Nichols' body; PC Neil discovering Polly Nichols' body; PC Thain being signalled by PC Neil; and PC Mizen encountering Cross and Paul 300 yards away at the corner of Bakers Row and Old Montague Street all at exactly 3.45 am.
Regards,
Simon

'Synchronize watches chaps...'

[GUT]

Hi All,

It's intriguing to me that in an age when there were not many accurate public clocks and few people owned accurate pocket watches that, according to official testimony, we find Robert Paul walking up Buck’s Row on his way to work; Charles Cross standing by Polly Nichols' body; PC Neil discovering Polly Nichols' body; PC Thain being signalled by PC Neil; and PC Mizen encountering Cross and Paul 300 yards away at the corner of Bakers Row and Old Montague Street all at exactly 3.45 am.

Regards,

Simon

G'day Simon

I don't find it strange at all for two basic reasons:

1. What you say about clocks and watches

2. The fact that even in the 1960's and 70's if you asked someone for the time you at best got to the nearest 5 mins, I am pretty sure that I never heard my Grandfather [born 1904] ever use a time that wasn't the quarter hour. It is only in this digital age that everyone quotes the time to the minute.

[Lechmere]

Didn't lie about his name
Wasn't found by a dead body

[GUT]

Didn't lie about his name

Nor did Cross in all probability, just about everybody in this case seems to have used multiple names and in Cross' case there is a link that jumps out and bites you on the proverbial to explain why he use4d that name.

Wasn't found by a dead body

Nor was Cross, according to one report he was in the middle of the street when Paul saw him and in another on the opposite side of the road.

[Peter Griffith aka gryff]

3.45am

Hi All,

It's intriguing to me that in an age when there were not many accurate public clocks and few people owned accurate pocket watches that, according to official testimony, we find Robert Paul walking up Buck’s Row on his way to work; Charles Cross standing by Polly Nichols' body; PC Neil discovering Polly Nichols' body; PC Thain being signalled by PC Neil; and PC Mizen encountering Cross and Paul 300 yards away at the corner of Bakers Row and Old Montague Street all at exactly 3.45 am.

Regards,

Simon

That critical time of 3.45am - crops up all over the place. In fact in the programme, Paul is seen approaching Cross at 3.46am. Paul has yet to have a conversation with Cross, or to carry out his "examination" of the body, or to discuss what to do.

Yet the programme makes a big deal of timing.

And then there is the 7 minutes for Cross to get from his home to Bucks Row and the body. If Cross is the murderer where did Polly Nichols arrive from? Did Cross have to go down to the Whitechapel Road to pick her up, then persuade a drunk lady to walk with him to Bucks Row? The timing then would then be different. Or was Polly Nichols for some reason already in Buck's Row. None of that is explained.

cheers, gryff

[Lechmere]

So the couple of reports that don't mention Mizen referring to bring wanted by a policeman should be given more credence than the more numerous reports that do refer to Mizen saying Lechmere told him he was wanted by a policeman. Yeah

And as 'Ripperological' peers are supposedly by a clear majority in favour of Lechmere telling the truth that's a fact then... Yeah again

[Lechmere]

Gryff
Lechmere in all likelihood met her on Whitechapel Road.

Gut
What report put Lechmere on the other side of the road?
The road is narrow - in the middle puts you close to the pavement.
Yes there is an obvious reason why he used the name but that makes it an obvious reason to come up with a lie. His name was not Cross - simple. He knew his name was not Cross as that year he entered the electotal register as Lechmere and sent his kids to school as Lechmere. He Baptised his daughter as Lechmere and registered her birth as Lechmere.