Crippen Documentary 1 July 2008

[Debra A]

Thanks Belinda.,
I hope you get to see the archives as Trestrail's version that Cora tried to withdraw all the money in Dec.without Crippen's consent, differs from the assistant bank manager's statement in court that Cora gave 12 months notice in Dec. 1909, without the signature of her husband, to withdraw the whole savings. She would not have been able to withdraw the money until Dec. 1910.

Trying to withdraw money and giving 12 months notice to be able to withdraw the money are not the same thing, obviously.
It would be nice to have this cleared up, good luck.

[belinda]

I found it here

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/episodes/executed-in-error/198/

The part is at 36.02

I have applied for a quote for copies of the documents so I can see them in full hopefully.

[Debra A]

This is from the statement made by Edgar Brett, assistant manager of the Charing Cross bank, at the trial;

The money in the accounts was subject to 12 months notice of withdrawal.
On 15 December 1909, Mrs Crippen gave notice of withdrawal. The money could not be payable to any one until 15th December, 1910.

Cora disappeared 31 January 1910.

[Debra A]

Hi Robert, thanks for that. I'll check out those references.
One source I did come across mentioned that Cora and Crippen had to give a customary 12months notice to withdraw their substantial joint saving and that in the December before Cora disappeared, she gave that notice to the bank.
12 months notice seems a bit excessive to get your mitts on your own cash though!

[Robert]

Hi Debs

I don't know where Belinda found that, but it seems to be mentioned on several sites. On Google, "Cora Crippen tried to withdraw money" produces the references.

[Debra A]

Belinda, out of interest, where does that information come from?

[belinda]

jmenges How do you explain the fact that Cora tried to withdraw all the money from their bank account two weeks before she dissapeared?

What motive would she have for doing that?

[jmenges]

2 quick comments on the paper. They continually describe the decendants tested as "grand-neices" and "great-grand neices" of Cora, when they were in fact grand half-nieces and great-grand half nieces, if they were related at all. Children from Mary Wolff's second marriage.

Also, they make the same mistake as they made all those years ago by pronouncing that "Based on the genealogical and molecular data presented here, only one conclusion can be drawn: the remains obtained from the Crippen's cellar at 39 Hilldrop Crescent, London, in 1910 were not those of Dr. Crippen's wife."

This is incorrect, of course. The other conclusion that can be drawn (which happens to be the right conclusion, since mtDNA is used for exclusion purposes) is that the living decendants tested are not related to the remains in the cellar. Big difference.

JM

[jmenges]

Nevermind. Email received.

Thanks

JM

[jmenges]

*The Journal of Forensic Science
CASE REPORT CRIMINALISTICS: The Conviction of Dr. Crippen: New Forensic Findings in a Century-Old Murder

David R. Foran Ph.D.1, Beth E. Wills A.D.N.2, Brianne M. Kiley M.S.3, Carrie B. Jackson M.S.3,
John H. Trestrail III B.S.4
Article first published online: 23 AUG 2010
DOI: 10.1111/j.1556-4029.2010.01532.x
© 2010 American Academy of Forensic Sciences

Could you provide a link to this? Google got me nowhere.

Thanks Debs,

JM

[Debra A]

I've little doubt that Cora was a member of the Mersinger family, its that no records exist of the marriage between Mary Wolffe and Joseph Mackamotzki, nor do any birth records exist for Cora Kunegunde Mackamotzki. Solid genealogical proof that Cora is the daughter of Mary Wolffe seems to be lacking. Whether Ms. Wills ran out of resources or just failed to locate the proper records is left unsaid.

Having just read the research paper published in 'The Journal of Forensic Science' that disscusses both the DNA testing and genealogical research and gives the sources used in the genealogical research, it looks like nothing at all was found to confirm that Cora was definitely the daughter of Mary Wolffe;

*"Genealogical findings
Cora crippen (Kunegunde Mackamotzki) was born in Brooklyn, New york, in 1873, the daughter of Joseph Mackamotszki and Mary (Maria) Wolff. The date of Cora's birth was calculated from her and Dr. Crippen's marriage license in July 1892 (age 19).."
[a reproduction of the marriage license of Cora and Crippen then appears, showing a marriage date of Sept. 1 1892]
So obviously no birth record was found if they were using the marriage and census data to calculate Cora's age.

Various census extracts are also reproduced that have been mentioned on this thread. The discrepancy in the age of Mary Mersinger [supposedly Mary Wolffe] between the 1880 and 1900 census and it's possible ramifications as mentioned by jmenges and Chris way back in this thread, are not mentioned.

The rest of the genealogical research concerns the DNA participants and their relationship to Cora's sister, which looks solid enough and no one has really voiced any concerns over. It has always been the lack of evidence that Cora definitely had the same mother as her 'half sisters' [who's female descendants were the DNA participants] that has been a problem, and the published research comes up with nothing to confirm definitely that she was as far as I can see.

*The Journal of Forensic Science
CASE REPORT CRIMINALISTICS: The Conviction of Dr. Crippen: New Forensic Findings in a Century-Old Murder

David R. Foran Ph.D.1, Beth E. Wills A.D.N.2, Brianne M. Kiley M.S.3, Carrie B. Jackson M.S.3,
John H. Trestrail III B.S.4
Article first published online: 23 AUG 2010
DOI: 10.1111/j.1556-4029.2010.01532.x
© 2010 American Academy of Forensic Sciences

[ghoulstonstreet]

Hello all, Is there any way to get this thread off here and on its own so we don't have to click Crippen To Be Exhumed and then search for this interior thread every time? Seems there's some interest here - I guess we have around 7 posters. Thanks

[ghoulstonstreet]

Ms.Mills and Theresa exhumations?

Hi Chris,

I've little doubt that Cora was a member of the Mersinger family, its that no records exist of the marriage between Mary Wolffe and Joseph Mackamotzki, nor do any birth records exist for Cora Kunegunde Mackamotzki. Solid genealogical proof that Cora is the daughter of Mary Wolffe seems to be lacking. Whether Ms. Wills ran out of resources or just failed to locate the proper records is left unsaid.

In the Notable Trial Series, the statement of Theresa Hunn reads

I am the full sister of Belle Elmore[...] My mother was twice married.

I remember on the 15th of April this year my half-sister, Mrs. Mills, getting a letter from Dr. Crippen. My half-sister brought that letter to my house.

I'll take a look at the link you provided to see this apparent discrepancy.

Thanks

JM

I would think that a better way to get foolproof Mt DNA from Cora's maternal line would be to exhume either Theresa's body (full sister) or Ms. Mills (half sister).

[ghoulstonstreet]

Is this Thread Alive?

I want the cute one, second from the left.

Hi. Thanks, menges for referring us to this thread. Can we assume it's now resurrected? Will my new posts show? Thanks

[ghoulstonstreet]

Just some pics-
[ATTACH]2398[/ATTACH] Dew in the garden........

[ATTACH]2399[/ATTACH] The cellar..

[ATTACH]2400[/ATTACH] Great newspaper header....

[ATTACH]2401[/ATTACH] The 'divine' Belle Elmore'!!!! aka Cora Crippen

[ATTACH]2402[/ATTACH] Mr (aka Inspector ) Dew again ....Hmmm

I want the cute one, second from the left.