Crippen Documentary 1 July 2008

[Robert]

Debs, hope this helps.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.casebook.org/images/c-brown1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-carrieb.html&h=543&w=542&sz=91&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=ciUP8UnXJE0RTM:&tbnh=132&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfrancis%2Btumblety%2Bdeath%2Bcertificate%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

[Debra A]

Ah, thanks Robert!
So, a death certificate of that period should contain details of parents, marriage etc, provided that the informant knew that information.

[Robert]

But this is Ripperland, Debs. There's bound to be a hitch.....

[Debra A]

Ah but this thread is down in Crippen's cellar Robert!

[Maria]

Maria
As far as the Belle Rose research goes,that's it in a nutshell! This identification wasn't anything to do with the DNA testing obviously, but one only has to google "Belle Rose" and Crippen together to see how far this speculation about Belle Rose has spread and what it has become!

As Jonathon pointed out right at the beginning, and Chris has commented on throughout, the crucial thing missing from Beth Wills' research ( that which has been made known so far) is proof of a definite maternal blood link between Cora Crippen and the females involved in the mtDNA testing.
I can understand BW not wanting all her research made public, but that evidence is one element that is essential if these people really want us to believe their claims surely?

The other curious thing is that many people - including the executive producer of the TV documentary, in an article in the Times - are claiming that Belle Rose was living with Cora's sister in 1920.

Whoever this Bertha [?Mersinger] is, on the information provided by Beth Wills, she can't be Cora's sister Bertha, who - according to Wills - had married Arthur Baum and had a child who was born in 1912. Beth Wills described the woman in the census rather precisely as "a female with the same name as Cora’s younger half-sister Bertha Mersinger".

The irony is that if the woman in the census were Cora's sister, it would mean that Wills had traced the marriage and descendants of the wrong Bertha Mersinger, and that Trestrail and his colleagues had used the wrong mitochondrial DNA in their tests!

Debra & Chris

So due to the botched genealogical research this means the wrong people have been tested for the mitochondrial DNA tests. Its like a dog´s dinner.

On the 1901 Census in England, Cora appears as Corine Crippen ( wife ) with her husband Hawley Crippen. She gives her age as 20.

Chris, Peter sends you his regards.

[Debra A]

Debra & Chris

So due to the botched genealogical research this means the wrong people have been tested for the mitochondrial DNA tests. Its like a dog´s dinner.

On the 1901 Census in England, Cora appears as Corine Crippen ( wife ) with her husband Hawley Crippen. She gives her age as 20.

Chris, Peter sends you his regards.

Maria, I don't think Beth Wills botched the genealogical research. She definitely has the right family in the 1880 and 1900 US census. She also used birth, christening, marriage and death certificates some of them catholic records apparently.
From what I can make out, I don't think she actually traced the modern day descendents herself however. Judging from a message I saw made by Beth Wills on a rootsweb message board in 2002, she had become stuck at a certain point and couldn't get any further (1900 census). She was appealing (desperately, due to a movie? company about to visit to make a film about the Crippen case very shortly!) for descendants of Cora's sisters to contact her. The family of Bertha Mersinger did contact her, as did a few others and hopefully Beth would have checked out all their genealogy to make sure it was correct, but without her making any of this known we just don't know.

And as both Chris and Jonathon have said,and I agree with, the thing that Beth hasn't really proved (and she may have this evidence but just not produced it) is that Cora and Theresa, who were full sisters, definitely had the same mother as Bertha (Cora's half sister) and the other later children of Frederick Mersinger and Mary.

[Maria]

Debra:

Then I´m completely confused.

The newspaper article says that Cora or Corine went on to live to New York with her sister, that she did not die at the hands of her husband. When you looked at that entry, it did not read SINGER but DESIGNER and the age given as 48 in reality is not 48 but aged 29. That seems to me like the wrong person. We see it all the time in our line of work.

Maria

[Debra A]

Maria, I took this quote from Chris from post #109 which might explain:

Beth Wills described the woman in the census rather precisely as "a female with the same name as Cora’s younger half-sister Bertha Mersinger".

As you can see, Beth doesn't seems to be claiming it was definitely Cora's sister, just that she had the same name. Somewhere along the line it has been twisted by the media to say the genealogist involved in the research definitely found Belle Rose living in New York with Cora's sister in 1920 and that the same Belle Rose travelled from Bermuda to New York in 1910 (which is just nonsense, as the woman arriving in 1910 was b c 1873 and the woman in the 1920 census was 29. I'm not sure if this was also stated in the programme as I didn't see it all unfortuantely.

As you say, she did get the age and the singer ocupation wrong....and I really have no clue why Beth mentioned her at all when she must have known, going by her own research alone, and the Baum marriage, that this was not Cora's sister.

[Maria]

[QUOTE=Deb

As you say, she did get the age and the singer ocupation wrong....and I really have no clue why Beth mentioned her at all when she must have known, going by her own research alone, and the Baum marriage, that this was not Cora's sister.[/QUOTE]

Debra:

Precisely !

Besides that, she had better give the evidence of her research rather than just her word about it, as this is a very common name, and as you can see yourself a glaring mistake has been made. Most people won´t check, just take her word for it as " the expert´s "

Maria

[jmenges]

Besides that, she had better give the evidence of her research rather than just her word about it, as this is a very common name, and as you can see yourself a glaring mistake has been made. Most people won´t check, just take her word for it as " the expert´s "

Maria

I can tell you for a fact that Ms. Wills has absolutely no intention of providing skeptics (us in particular) with any of her research or even grant us her opinions on these matters, and I can say with certainty that she has viewed at least part of this thread.

JM

[Debra A]

"us in particular" ? Have we done something to upset her, other than to do some research for ourselves, as she herself suggested?

[jmenges]

In my email exchange with her yesterday I pointed out some of the questions raised and discrepancies discovered (Antoin & Belle Rose), I linked to the thread at place of the Belle Rose census record, and in her reply she expressed in no uncertain terms, one might even say rudely, her intention to completely avoid participating in this discussion.

I was nice to her, too...

JM

[Maria]

As a friend of mine would say.... if we are not allowed to see the " secret squirrel " evidence, then I cannot be convinced. I´m afraid without evidence that is not enough to support her pronouncements.

Maria

[Ally]

That's unfortunate Jonathon. I am afraid in my mind at least that takes this business out of the "simple human error" category and places it rather firmly in "deliberate deception".

A shame. I do hope Debs you contact the major media outlets who are blaring the inaccurate "research" and inform them of your findings. It would be a shame of this fraud kept getting trumpeted as fact.

[jmenges]

And as a humorous aside, I discovered a few days ago when I attempted to register on the Crippen family genealogy site, my email address had already been banned.



JM