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A Petticoat Parley: Women in Ripperology

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Following on from Debra’s point on how Unfortunate appears in Court and Inquest testimony’s I had a look at a few case at The Old Bailey with reference to the use of the word ‘unfortunate’ as a noun. Here are just a few examples.


    Pickpocketing case, 1835

    “I cannot say whether she is a woman of the town.”


    COURT. Q. Did she get her living in that way? A. At the time I first knew her, she was living with her mother—at the time she went to the Union, probably she might be an unfortunate girl.



    Robbery case, 1835

    MARY ANN WOOTON . I am an unfortunate woman. I was out on the morning in question in the Back-lane, East Smithfield



    Theft case, 1835

    ELIZA BROWN . I live at No. 9, Algar-place, Essex-street, and am an unfortunate girl. I knew the prisoner, Henry Priest, for about a fortnight before the robbery—one morning in August, about eight o'clock, he came to my room—I do not know what day.



    Pickpocketing case, 1835

    Watchman John McCue. I saw her for about ten minutes—I knew her to be an unfortunate woman, that walks the streets.



    Theft case, 1836

    ANN RANDALL . I am an unfortunate girl. I live in New Gravel-lane, Shadwell. I missed a comb, ear-rings, and gloves, on the 23rd of January, out of a drawer in my room—I have found the comb—I know the prisoner—he is a sailor—I met him in the King William, public-house—he went home with me, and stopped two nights with me—he left between seven and eight o'clock in the morning, and I missed the things after he was gone—he gave me 2s. 6d.



    Coining Offence 1836

    Martha Edgcombe. I am an unfortunate girl—I took it in the street the night before.



    Pickpocketing case, 1836

    Elizabeth William. I am an unfortunate girl, and live in Shire-lane. I know the last witness, by his being with me Friday night—I met him in Fleet-street



    Jumping forward to 1887/1888



    Pickpocketing case, 1887

    I have known Mrs. Began about two years, since she has been in our house—I have been there about 8 years—the prisoner has made two or three previous disturbances in our place—the woman he is living with is an unfortunate—the landlord does not live in the house—I am caretaker—I have only ascertained since this, that the woman is an unfortunate, she only came there last November



    Wounding case, 1888

    Frances Coughlin. The prisoner did not support me—I am an unfortunate



    Robbery case, 1889

    SARAH WALLER . I live at Cambridge Road, Norbiton—I am a single woman, and have no occupation—I get my living as an unfortunate



    Murder case, 1889

    ELIZABETH CHARLOTTE BARNETT In December last I went to live at 3, Clifton Terrace, Finsbury—I was getting my living as an unfortunate girl



    Wounding case, 1889

    ROSE ELIZABETH PAYNE . I am an unfortunate, and live at 9, Rich Street



    Murder case, 1889

    MAUD PEGLER . I live at 19, Lamb's Conduit Passage, Red Lion Street, and am an unfortunate



    Extortion case, 1889

    Vallet Brown. I am not married—I call myself Mrs. Brown, it looks better—I am German—Brown is a nickname, my real name is Minnie Groser—I have been in England seven years—I have been doing what your wife did for a living—I am an unfortunate; I did the same before I came to England


    …..

    Its abundantly clear that every single one of these, without fail, uses Unfortunate to mean Prostitute. So unless Harry thinks that I’ve invented these or that I’ve somehow hacked into OldBaileyOnline and doctored the transcripts can we please agree that when a woman is described as an Unfortunate or that a woman says ‘I live at x and am unfortunate’ then we can take it to the bank that she was a prostitute? With time I could have produced many more, all with the same meaning. Even when someone just says ‘I’m an unfortunate girl’ it’s absolutely clear from context that she’s euphemistically saying that she’s a prostitute and that no one has asked her whether her current run of luck is either good or bad!
    Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 12-10-2021, 12:00 PM.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by harry View Post
    Debra doesnt need my permission to post, why the childish remarks about it.
    In post 426 Paul writes'WE are not saying the five were prostitutes'.Herlock is not saying the five were postitutes?He is included in the we,I suppose.I am not saying the five were prostitutes either,so we have collectively said the five were not prostitutes,Good.A certain woman will be pleased to hear that.

    Harry, I know that English is your first language so it’s difficult to excuse this bit of ‘misinterpretation.’ When Paul says ‘we are not saying that the 5 were prostitutes’ what he meant is that it was the Police and family and friends at the time who were saying it. We are using that evidence to come to a conclusion. And that obvious conclusion is that those women engaged in prostitution.

    Now to Herlocks claim Euphemism establishes unfortunate and prostitute to be of the same meaning.
    Statistics for that time in Whitechapel.1200 prostitutes.8000 unfortunates.So we have 1200 prostitutes,who were also unfortunates,or ,8000 unfortunates who were also prostitutes,men and women, according to Herlocks reasoning.Take your pick.All unfortuntes were prostitutes,Herlock claims.I wonder how many agree

    Could you please state where you took these figures from Harry? I’d be interested to see the survey that listed ‘prostitutes’ and ‘unfortunates’ separately. In fact I’d be tempted to place a bet that you got these from 2 separate sources which would render your point completely invalid of course and would be more than an indicator of bias on your part.

    A so called expert once said the most we can expect at this time is documentary evidence.He is correct.There is such evidence some or all the five were unfortunates,some has been posted,but none that states they were also prostitutes.

    Unfortunates/Prostitutes are the same thing Harry. Only you appear to doubt this. But then again you have a marked tendency to believe that you are correct and the vast majority are wrong.

    There is evidence where they were named as prostitutes Harry but you appear to suffer from selective word-blindness. For one, Trevor has already mentioned a Police file. But if you believe that he’s simply making this up or imagining it then that’s your choice.


    So yes,it is easy to understand why Herlock wishes for the two descriptions to be accepted as meaning the same thing.

    Because the evidence shows that they do. It’s also very easy to understand why you don’t want them to be Harry.
    And of course Harry, yet again you fail to address the issue that I’ve been chasing you for over the last few pages. Your claim that I lied and your request for proof. I provided that absolute proof for all to see. You’ve ignored, avoided, ducked, dodged and responded to other questions besides this one. You should have become a Politician Harry as you have a talent for avoiding answering uncomfortable questions. I’ll give you yet another chance to show some integrity Harry. Will acknowledge that you were wrong?

    Im waiting Harry.
    Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 12-10-2021, 10:24 AM.

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  • Mark J D
    replied
    Originally posted by harry View Post
    Debra doesnt need my permission to post, why the childish remarks about it.
    Folks, either this is evidence of a brain injury or it is pure trolling.

    M.

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  • Ally
    replied
    Originally posted by etenguy View Post
    I realise that 30 pages into a thread is a bit late for the comment I am about to make, but better late than never.

    I thought the podcast (rippercast) was excellent, some really interesting perspectives. Certainly made me reflect on some of the points raised.
    Thank you so much! That was kind of you, and since we're all pretty sick of the circular argument, it's a nice break.

    Leave a comment:


  • harry
    replied
    Debra doesnt need my permission to post, why the childish remarks about it.
    In post 426 Paul writes'WE are not saying the five were prostitutes'.Herlock is not saying the five were postitutes?He is included in the we,I suppose.I am not saying the five were prostitutes either,so we have collectively said the five were not prostitutes,Good.A certain woman will be pleased to hear that.
    Now to Herlocks claim Euphemism establishes unfortunate and prostitute to be of the same meaning.
    Statistics for that time in Whitechapel.1200 prostitutes.8000 unfortunates.So we have 1200 prostitutes,who were also unfortunates,or ,8000 unfortunates who were also prostitutes,men and women, according to Herlocks reasoning.Take your pick.All unfortuntes were prostitutes,Herlock claims.I wonder how many agree
    A so called expert once said the most we can expect at this time is documentary evidence.He is correct.There is such evidence some or all the five were unfortunates,some has been posted,but none that states they were also prostitutes.So yes,it is easy to understand why Herlock wishes for the two descriptions to be accepted as meaning the same thing.

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  • etenguy
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Where have you been Eten? We were waiting for you to get here.
    I have actually been away on a short birthday break, just snuck it in ahead of the growing restrictions. Listened to the podcast and the two hours sped by. The evaluation of Haille Rubenhold's book sparked some really interesting discussions of the issues it raised.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by etenguy View Post
    I realise that 30 pages into a thread is a bit late for the comment I am about to make, but better late than never.

    I thought the podcast (rippercast) was excellent, some really interesting perspectives. Certainly made me reflect on some of the points raised.
    Where have you been Eten? We were waiting for you to get here.

    Leave a comment:


  • etenguy
    replied
    I realise that 30 pages into a thread is a bit late for the comment I am about to make, but better late than never.

    I thought the podcast (rippercast) was excellent, some really interesting perspectives. Certainly made me reflect on some of the points raised.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by PaulB View Post

    And as you know, Debs is more than capable of telling "Cupcake" where he can insert his permission.
    Just to clarify-I have never owned a WWII anti tank shell

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    I was just checking a website called Words And Phrases From The Past (written as one word) looking for words

    and phrases for ‘prostitute.’ There are some crackers…

    Badger
    Bag-Slinger
    Barbers Chair
    Bed Faggot
    Bottom Bitch
    Canary Girl
    Cracked Piece
    Dirty Neck
    Flash Mollisher
    F***stress
    Haybag
    Hot Beef
    Laced Mutton
    Lick Spigot
    Miss Laycock
    Nestlecock

    And moving down to the letter ‘u’ we have……..you’ve guessed it…

    Unfortunate.​​​​

    As women have openly used this word in Court and Inquest proceedings it would beggar belief that they felt compelled (or were told) to state their final circumstances or their current level luck. Surely there can be no doubt that Unfortunate was accepted to have meant Prostitute?
    I just noticed this error. That should read ‘financial’ and not ‘final.’

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  • Mark J D
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    I was just checking a website called Words And Phrases From The Past (written as one word) looking for words and phrases for ‘prostitute...
    All of which degrading awfulness makes me think about Elizabeth Stride reportedly being known as 'Mother Gum'. I've seen contradictory reports about whether it was her upper or lower teeth that were all missing; but either way I can't help wondering if that nickname has a significance in terms of sexual services.

    Not for the first time, I pause and ponder the bottomless pit of humiliation into which these poor women -- and all those millions of others -- found themselves thrown.

    M.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by PaulB View Post

    "Gobbing off"! Not a slang expression I was familiar with, but, having looked it up, it exactly fits what Harry has been doing.
    We use that one in The Midlands Paul. I don’t know where in the country Debra is from though so I can’t say that it’s specific to the midlands. It can also have another meaning but we certainly won’t go there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    I was just checking a website called Words And Phrases From The Past (written as one word) looking for words

    and phrases for ‘prostitute.’ There are some crackers…

    Badger
    Bag-Slinger
    Barbers Chair
    Bed Faggot
    Bottom Bitch
    Canary Girl
    Cracked Piece
    Dirty Neck
    Flash Mollisher
    F***stress
    Haybag
    Hot Beef
    Laced Mutton
    Lick Spigot
    Miss Laycock
    Nestlecock

    And moving down to the letter ‘u’ we have……..you’ve guessed it…

    Unfortunate.​​​​

    As women have openly used this word in Court and Inquest proceedings it would beggar belief that they felt compelled (or were told) to state their final circumstances or their current level luck. Surely there can be no doubt that Unfortunate was accepted to have meant Prostitute?
    Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 12-09-2021, 02:01 PM.

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  • PaulB
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post

    No need for me to say anything, Ally. The more Harry posts the more obvious his motives become. I have faith that any intelligent person reading this can plainly see Harry's argument isn't about Rubenhold's book or theory and any objections we may have to her conclusions. It's about him perceiving there to be kudos in gobbing off at certain people!
    "Gobbing off"! Not a slang expression I was familiar with, but, having looked it up, it exactly fits what Harry has been doing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by Ally View Post


    When Harry writes "you can discuss the topic Debra" I am of course more caught up on the condescension and hoping Debra responds with, "Oh do I have your permission? Thanks so much cupcake, now go make me a cup of tea". I mean he totally ignored that her point was she'd already brought up this issue and he dodged it, as is his wont, while continuing to dodge any actual or valid response.

    But your point is valid too.
    No need for me to say anything, Ally. The more Harry posts the more obvious his motives become. I have faith that any intelligent person reading this can plainly see Harry's argument isn't about Rubenhold's book or theory and any objections we may have to her conclusions. It's about him perceiving there to be kudos in gobbing off at certain people!

    Leave a comment:

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