A Petticoat Parley: Women in Ripperology

[harry]

You can discuss the topic Debra.How does it impact on the five victims.Remember they were real women,and respect should be shown them.

[Debra A]

You can discuss the topic Debra.How does it impact on the five victims.Remember they were real women,and respect should be shown them.

Harry, in my view, exploring what the term 'unfortunate' actually meant to both the women described as such, and to the authorities of the era, is important when trying to determine if Rubenhold's conclusions about misogyny, and it's impact on how the crimes were investigated/reported are correct.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have no issues with anyone Herlock,experts included,but neither am I overawed by them.They haven't solved the case.I look around the internet Herlock and find there are untold numbers that do agree with my view .Ask Rubenhold and her supporters.I look around these boards and notice only a small group expressing dissaproval.I'm satisfied.
Proof.Evidence that reveals the truth.That is all I am asking for Herlock.In this case evidence that the JTR victims were prostitutes,soliciting the day they were killed.
Don't you want the truth Herlock?Do you know the truth?
If there is no point in discussing it with me,why do you persist.You say unfortunate was an euphemism for prostitute.Every unfortunate?Where outside of your claim,is that stated?
Why do you cite Trevor,in particular.what is it about him that makes his claims more valued than mine.
You see your fault Herlock.So many claims ,with nohing to support those claims.
You are the one that is ducking and diving,and by your latest rants,losing the plot.
Is what Dedra said ,evidence that the five victims were prostitutes?Please do inform us,I'm all agog.
I eagerly await your next load of rubbish.

Ok. Let’s try and simplify.

Do you accept that you made this post?

Herlock,you show the posters where I have said the term unfortuunate didn't mean prostitute but someone down on their luck.Unfortunately it is lies and misinformation such as Herlock posts,and is taken up by others,that shatters their case.
How does the the murder of Eliza Grimwood prove or disprove that Polly Nichols was prostituting herself in Bucks Row.
I'm waiting Herlock

And do you accept….

a) that you (Harry) accuse me (just to be clear - Herlock Sholmes) of lying and of misinformation?

and

b) that you (Harry) challenged me (Herlock Sholmes) to prove that you (Harry) had said that ‘unfortunate’ didn’t specifically mean ‘prostitute?

That couldn’t be clearer. I can’t wait to see how you wriggle past this.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You can discuss the topic Debra.How does it impact on the five victims.Remember they were real women,and respect should be shown them.

As I thought. You are making a misguided moral judgment, like The Baron. If the evidence points to these women engaging in prostitution, and it does (unless you are intentionally blind) it is not disrespectful to mention it.

[Ally]

You can discuss the topic Debra.How does it impact on the five victims.Remember they were real women,and respect should be shown them.

Yes, respect should be shown to them, and it's completely disrespectful to lie about who they were and how they had to survive, because you place your antiquated ideas about morality above the actual reality of their lives. You cheapen them and their memory by whitewashing their experience because you can't accept them for who they were, and what they did.


But you know this, and you keep arguing stupidity and stupidly because you can't just admit that you're wrong, and this entire argument is sexism at its worst. Because it's the type of sexism that pretends it's virtue and it's not. It's the kind of sexism that treats women as something other than people, because you think you're "being nice" and you are in fact being dismissive, and demeaning.

This is where if I were a sexist, I'd say "oh well, you're an idiot, but at least you're pretty" and then be bewildered when you didn't think it was a compliment.

[PaulB]

Yes, respect should be shown to them, and it's completely disrespectful to lie about who they were and how they had to survive, because you place your antiquated ideas about morality above the actual reality of their lives. You cheapen them and their memory by whitewashing their experience because you can't accept them for who they were, and what they did.


But you know this, and you keep arguing stupidity and stupidly because you can't just admit that you're wrong, and this entire argument is sexism at its worst. Because it's the type of sexism that pretends it's virtue and it's not. It's the kind of sexism that treats women as something other than people, because you think you're "being nice" and you are in fact being dismissive, and demeaning.

This is where if I were a sexist, I'd say "oh well, you're an idiot, but at least you're pretty" and then be bewildered when you didn't think it was a compliment.

When Harry writes, "You can discuss the topic Debra. How does it impact on the five victims. Remember they were real women, and respect should be shown them", the point Harry is studiously avoiding is that WE are not saying the five were prostitutes. The police of 1888 said that. WE don't have to prove anything. The police of 1888 do. But they're prevented from doing that by the little matter of being dead. So, what we do is look at the evidence that's come down to us to see if there is anything that corroborates what the police said, and there is, there's stuff like what William Nichols or the fellow lodgers said. We also look for evidence that contradicts what the police said, but I'm not aware of any. Rubenhold's case is that there is no evidence that they were prostitutes, but there is evidence, she just ignored it. If Harry wants to challenge our conclusion, he can - with evidence, not silly arguments and degenerating into insults. But you know this.

[Ally]

When Harry writes, "You can discuss the topic Debra.

When Harry writes "you can discuss the topic Debra" I am of course more caught up on the condescension and hoping Debra responds with, "Oh do I have your permission? Thanks so much cupcake, now go make me a cup of tea". I mean he totally ignored that her point was she'd already brought up this issue and he dodged it, as is his wont, while continuing to dodge any actual or valid response.

But your point is valid too.

[PaulB]

When Harry writes "you can discuss the topic Debra" I am of course more caught up on the condescension and hoping Debra responds with, "Oh do I have your permission? Thanks so much cupcake, now go make me a cup of tea". I mean he totally ignored that her point was she'd already brought up this issue and he dodged it, as is his wont, while continuing to dodge any actual or valid response.

But your point is valid too.

I am so used to Harry dodging things, it often slips past unnoticed now. And as you know, Debs is more than capable of telling "Cupcake" where he can insert his permission. Overall, though, Harry probably hasn't the faintest idea what Debs is talking about. He hasn't read The Five, so doesn't know what Rubenhold's argument is.

[Ally]

It's amazing how many people feel compelled to argue something fervently and endlessly when they openly admit they haven't read or educated themselves beyond the limits of their entrenched opinion.

[PaulB]

It's amazing how many people feel compelled to argue something fervently and endlessly when they openly admit they haven't read or educated themselves beyond the limits of their entrenched opinion.

Yes, and who don't even understand what that means as far as their opinions are concerned.

[Debra A]

When Harry writes "you can discuss the topic Debra" I am of course more caught up on the condescension and hoping Debra responds with, "Oh do I have your permission? Thanks so much cupcake, now go make me a cup of tea". I mean he totally ignored that her point was she'd already brought up this issue and he dodged it, as is his wont, while continuing to dodge any actual or valid response.

But your point is valid too.

No need for me to say anything, Ally. The more Harry posts the more obvious his motives become. I have faith that any intelligent person reading this can plainly see Harry's argument isn't about Rubenhold's book or theory and any objections we may have to her conclusions. It's about him perceiving there to be kudos in gobbing off at certain people!

[PaulB]

No need for me to say anything, Ally. The more Harry posts the more obvious his motives become. I have faith that any intelligent person reading this can plainly see Harry's argument isn't about Rubenhold's book or theory and any objections we may have to her conclusions. It's about him perceiving there to be kudos in gobbing off at certain people!

"Gobbing off"! Not a slang expression I was familiar with, but, having looked it up, it exactly fits what Harry has been doing.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I was just checking a website called Words And Phrases From The Past (written as one word) looking for words

and phrases for ‘prostitute.’ There are some crackers…

Badger
Bag-Slinger
Barbers Chair
Bed Faggot
Bottom Bitch
Canary Girl
Cracked Piece
Dirty Neck
Flash Mollisher
F***stress
Haybag
Hot Beef
Laced Mutton
Lick Spigot
Miss Laycock
Nestlecock

And moving down to the letter ‘u’ we have……..you’ve guessed it…

Unfortunate.

As women have openly used this word in Court and Inquest proceedings it would beggar belief that they felt compelled (or were told) to state their final circumstances or their current level luck. Surely there can be no doubt that Unfortunate was accepted to have meant Prostitute?

[Herlock Sholmes]

"Gobbing off"! Not a slang expression I was familiar with, but, having looked it up, it exactly fits what Harry has been doing.

We use that one in The Midlands Paul. I don’t know where in the country Debra is from though so I can’t say that it’s specific to the midlands. It can also have another meaning but we certainly won’t go there.

[Mark J D]

I was just checking a website called Words And Phrases From The Past (written as one word) looking for words and phrases for ‘prostitute...

All of which degrading awfulness makes me think about Elizabeth Stride reportedly being known as 'Mother Gum'. I've seen contradictory reports about whether it was her upper or lower teeth that were all missing; but either way I can't help wondering if that nickname has a significance in terms of sexual services.

Not for the first time, I pause and ponder the bottomless pit of humiliation into which these poor women -- and all those millions of others -- found themselves thrown.

M.