Ep. #44 The Chapman-Ripper Theory: w/ R Michael Gordon

[HelenaWojtczak]

I am rather staggered that R. Michael Gordon, having written so many books on Klosowski, thinks that Klosowski's passport was issued to allow him to travel to London/the USA.

The actual list of the documents of his found in 1902 makes it clear that the passport was for use "within the limits of the Kingdom of Poland" (as David pointed out).

Helena

PS Passports were not needed for travel within Europe until the First World War.

[HelenaWojtczak]

Hello Nats,R Michael Gordon referred to the incident where Klosowski's two "wives" met, and - as HL Adam puts it - one of them "disappeared". As I pointed out, HL Adam gets this bit wrong, and that Lucy Baderski was this mysterious "Polish wife", as the following proves..

I have an idea!

Lucy is unhappy in the marriage, and takes a trip home to Poland, with her daughter, partly to let her family see the child and partly to consult with her mother about the state of her marriage (Klosowski's violence, or womanising?

Maybe she doesn't even tell Klosowski when (or if) she will be back in London.

So, Klosowski sets up home with Annie Chapman. Either because he wants his marriage to be over and has moved on, or because he believes Lucy won't be coming back to him.

Then, when he's settled with Annie, Lucy turns up.

Helena

[thewastelandr]

Thanks, Jonathan! I got it from the first link, can't wait to listen! Good luck with your move!

[jmenges]

Just to make sure you are right clicking in the correct place...

on this page: http://www.casebook.org/podcast/listen.html?id=88

Embedded in this sentence

If you'd like to download the full mp3 you may do so by clicking here. You may wish to right-click on this link and select "Save as" in order to save the .mp3 file directly to your computer.

is the linked mp3.

As far as it not allowing you to "Get" it on iTunes, is that just with this episode? If so, I'd double check to see if you don't already have it. Look in your music folder- iTunes- iTunes Music- Podcasts. The mp3 is titled The_Chapman_Ripper_Theory.mp3 When you download podcasts from iTunes it places them in this Podcast folder it creates inside your iTunes Music Folder.

As another option, I've uploaded the show to RapidShare. Please try to download it from this location:

http://rapidshare.com/files/228719391/The_Chapman-Ripper_Theory.mp3.html

Click Free User, wait 30 seconds and you should be able to download it.

PM is Private Message. On the upper right corner of this site is your Private Message mailbox.

Hope this helps!

JM

[thewastelandr]

When I click on "get" on the subscriptions page, this episode won't download. I'm not on dial-up, so that is strange. When I right-click on the episode, there is no option to download that way.

I feel like a major idiot if I'm doing something stupid here. What's PM?

[jmenges]

What exactly is happening when you try to download it via iTunes? Are you getting an error message of any kind? And, can you not right-click download to get the episode from the streaming episode page?

Are you on dial-up?

Let me know exactly what is occurring (stalled download, exclamation point in iTunes etc) and hopefully we can figure out how to fix it.

We can take this to PM if you wish...

JM

[thewastelandr]

Please try deleting/removing the show from your iTunes podcast library (it will give you the option of keeping the files you can say "yes"), go back into the iTunes music store and re-subscribe. There should now be a "Get" button next to each episode back in your library listing. You should be able to download each episode.

I am showing no broken feeds when I do this myself.

Please let me know if it works.

Thanks,

JM

It's still not working after I did what you said. Arrgh! Oh well, must be my computer. Thanks for the tip!

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Sam,
Yes,I have had a chance today to read through more of the book that I have only had for a couple of days, and I had actually worked this one out for myself Sam, earlier on!
It would seem to me that the Polish wife is non other than Lucy Baderski.Neither Lucy"s brother, brother in law , sister or Wolff Levisohn---who seems to have been everywhere in Whitechapel like a rash between 1888 and 1890---make even a passing reference to any "Polish wife " having come over from Poland and I think they would have, had it actually happened!
In any case there were apparently indications of prostitution on the Pinchin Street torso and none of Chapman"s "wives" appear to have been prostitutes.

baby bird,
Yes you are quite right about the need for a "dig" at those known Chapman addresses .Astonishing it wasnt done at the time really.I mean Fred West"s houses ,gardens, cellars were combed throughout as was Christie"s only 50 years later!
Cheers
Norma

[babybird67]

hi Sam and all

firstly, the podcast was great...everyone was very informative and i learned a lot. It's a great way also to take in the information and to put a voice to a boardname (Sam...when i am reading your posts now i "hear" them in your lovely Welsh lilt!)

Thanks for those bits about the Polish wife thing...it's so easy to read something/hear something and think it correct isnt it...this whole subject is a minefield!

and Dave...hahaha...you were excellent, and not in the slightest moronic!

I still think it would be interesting as Michael said to go and have a dig at a couple of addresses where Chapman was known to have lived...would be fab if something turned up.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Nats,

Sam,
I noticed during the podcast that you questioned whether or not Klosowski had lived with both "wives" . According to HL Adam,in The Trial of George Chapman, which I have only just been able to obtain from the library,he says that it is likely he had been married in Poland before he came to London

R Michael Gordon referred to the incident where Klosowski's two "wives" met, and - as HL Adam puts it - one of them "disappeared". As I pointed out, HL Adam gets this bit wrong, and that Lucy Baderski was this mysterious "Polish wife", as the following proves.

HL Adam says this in the Introduction to his book (I'll quote a bit more of he same passage you posted, as it's relevant):

"It is indeed probable that he was already married before he came to this country. At any rate, a woman came to England from either Russia or Poland, and claimed him as her husband [but] Klosowski [...] had already gone through a marriage ceremony with another woman. The two women met at his house. Both claimed [to be] the real wife, and neither would give way to the other. For some time the two women actually lived in the same building as this enterprising barber. [...] At length, one of the women went away - disappeared - leaving the other mistress [because] of the situation. The one woman who remained was the Polish woman, Lucy Baderski." (Adam, The Trial of George Chapman, p3)

However, this is a clear misreading of an episode that occurred between Annie Chapman and Lucy Baderski as the following excerpt from Annie Chapman's testimony describes:

- "Do you recognise that woman, Mrs Klosowski [née Lucy Baderski]?"

- "Yes, he brought her to the shop where I was living with him. He said she was his wife".

- "Did you all three live in the house for some weeks after that?"

- "Yes, and I then left. That was the reason why I left [i.e. that Klosowski said that Lucy was his wife]." (Ibid., pp 101-102. Also in the trial transcripts of the Old Bailey.)

Annie tells us that this happened in Jan/Feb 1895, and given that Annie herself was evidently the "disappearing wife", she clearly couldn't have been the Pinchin Street Torso, as Gordon suggests.

This also tells me that HL Adam's "Introduction" to the book should be read with extreme caution, given that he made this elementary error. Far better to stick to the Court transcripts.

[Natalie Severn]

Sam,
I noticed during the podcast that you questioned whether or not Klosowski had lived with both "wives" .According to HL Adam,in The Trial of George Chapman, which I have only just been able to obtain from the library,he says that it is likely he had been married in Poland before he came to London : "It is probable that he was already married before he came to this country.At any rate , a woman came to England from either Russia or Poland, and claimed him as her husband.Her arrival,however,was at a most inopportune time, for Klosowski,who had been without female companionship for as long as he could possibly endure,had already gone through a marriage ceremony with another woman.The two women met at his house some time soon after his marriage to Lucy Baderski *........both women claimed the distinction of being the real wife and neither would give way to the other.For some time the two women lived in the same building ........"page 3.
He goes on to say that Severin and Lucy were living at Cable Street -----and removed to Greenfield Street later.
Adam states ,"At length one of the women went away,disappeared."

* date of the marriage was 29 October 1889-not August Bank Holiday 1889 as wrongly recalled by Stanislaus Baderski, Lucy"s brother,at Chapman"s trial.

[Natalie Severn]

.... mwah! mwah! Sam. And Meow! Meow! to AP.....[only kidding AP]

[Sam Flynn]

Nats - I look forward eagerly to your article, and thanks for the kind words.

"Mwah!" to you, also

[Sam Flynn]

But you weren't listening, were you Sam?
I reckon you boys have all got an attack of the luvvies.

... all I have to say to that, AP darling, is "Mwah!"

[Natalie Severn]

Article on Klosowski aka Chapman in next Ripperologist

We enjoyed that podcast very much. It was very good humoured as well as interesting so congratulations to the author Michael and Sam,Ben,Dave and Steve----and ofcourse JM for presenting such an impressive discussion.
I thought it may be of interest that I have written quite a long article for this months "Ripperologist" on Chapman.It was written before I knew of R.Michael Gordon"s book ,"The Thames Torso Murders of Victorian London" which I had to order through the local library and took a while to arrive- it did so this week.I am hoping to write a follow up article which will focus on the Torso murders .

Best Wishes

Norma