Ep. #28- Kosminski Was The Suspect

[robhouse]

Hi Stewart,

I'm working on it.

Rob H

[Natalie Severn]

I actually believe Anderson to have been driven by a number of " idee fixes"-Rose Mylett being one, "Fenian"s under the bed "another, the "second coming of Christ " a third........poor old Kosminski happened to be just one more of these ---following the exact same obsessive pattern.
But sincerely wishing Rob"s project on Kosminski the best all the same!
Cheers
Norma

[Chris]

I am sure I may have got some of this mixed up. Chris, do you think Isaac and Bertha lived at Ramsgate, and essentially had 2 addresses, or do you see this as more of a business they were running there? Or both?

I have just had a quick look through my notes and essentially, there are a number of announcements in the Jewish Chronicle between 1898 and 1914 which describe Issac and Bertha as of 171 Cable Street and a Ramsgate address (11 York Terrace or 25 Albion Place). There is just one in 1912 that simply describes them as of 25 Albion Place, and another in 1920 (Isaac's death notice) that describes him as late of Ramsgate. But we know from the grant of letters of administration, 13 January 1915, after the death of Bertha that she died at 113 Rutland Street, and was described as of 171 Cable Street. And Isaac died 1 July 1920 at "The Dolphin", 97-99 Whitechapel Road, the pub kept by his son Mark.

Then there are entries in various Ramsgate directories between 1899 and 1914-5 (some kindly posted by Chris Scott) that list a Ramsgate address with Isaac's name. But three advertisements for the boarding houses in the Jewish Chronicle (in 1905 and 1908) only mention Mrs Abrahams.

From all this, I assume the boarding houses in Ramsgate were probably run by Bertha, but that the couple's main residence was 171 Cable Street.

[Jeff Leahy]

What is most certainly required is a definitive book on Kosminski and his viability as a Ripper suspect. Rob and Chris have done some fantastic research on this and their knowledge of the Kosminski family is amazing. I think that they both should be encouraged to write a book on the subject. It amazes me that no book has ever been written on this important area of Ripper research. Just think of its value as a reference work, all that information and discussion of the various theories on the subject in one easily accessed source.

Yes I'm in total agreement with Stewart you guys must get it done.

I think Paul suggested that perhaps connecting in the whole 'Jewish' Eastend background. The progrom's to jewish immigration into the Eastend, might give you an excellent background for a book.

I guess neither of you need advice from me but certainly it would be something very new, surely someone must know a decent publisher?

Rob I remember you pointing out the Blue Dolfin when we walked past, I remeber now.

I've very much enjoyed the discussion over the last few days and must thank you all.

Mike suggested doing a chatroom session on the subject once everyone has listened to the program. are you still interested in organising something Mike? we need a time?

and would everyone be interested in taking part?..I'm not certain how it would work but Mike assured me it might

Pirate

[Chris]

I've just found a rather clearer version of the c. 1920 postcard showing Victoria House (from http://oldramsgate.blogspot.com/2006/07/east-cliff.html). I hope it's not so wide that it will disrupt the layout of the thread...

[Natalie Severn]

William Fishman has written several brilliant books on the Jewish east end,as has Jerry White,Jeff.
A book on Kosminski will be fascinating I am sure,but in my view this suspect was just the figment of Anderson"s bigoted and racist imagination.

[Chris]

PS excuse my ignorance but did the Kosminski's own or rent these properties?

We know from land tax assessments that 34 Yalford Street (as well as 32 next door, where as Robert points out Morris Lubnowski had lived between 1882 and 1885) were owned by someone named Rosenberg (presumably Jacob Rosenberg, a master tailor, of 39 Yalford Street who occurs in the Booth survey) and that 3 Sion Square was owned by a Mrs Luden (or Leeden).

Those are the only ones we know about for sure, but I think there would be a strong presumption they rented, except that Isaac may have been wealthy enough to buy some of the properties he lived in later in his career.

[Jeff Leahy]

William Fishman has written several brilliant books on the Jewish east end,as has Jerry White,Jeff.
A book on Kosminski will be fascinating I am sure,but in my view this suspect was just the figment of Anderson"s bigoted and racist imagination.

Yes we've got that Norma, and its an interesting point of view but there is know proof or substance for those comments about Anderson. ask Martin Fido.

[Jeff Leahy]

We know from land tax assessments that 34 Yalford Street (as well as 32 next door, where as Robert points out Morris Lubnowski had lived between 1882 and 1885) were owned by someone named Rosenberg (presumably Jacob Rosenberg, a master tailor, of 39 Yalford Street who occurs in the Booth survey) and that 3 Sion Square was owned by a Mrs Luden (or Leeden).

Those are the only ones we know about for sure, but I think there would be a strong presumption they rented, except that Isaac may have been wealthy enough to buy some of the properties he lived in later in his career.

Thanks Chris does that go for Ramsgate and the Blue Dolfin?

[Natalie Severn]

Yes we've got that Norma, and its an interesting point of view but there is know proof or substance for those comments about Anderson. ask Martin Fido.

I don"t need to ask Martin Fido,thankyou,Jeff.
Everything I have ever read about Anderson,from his early work as a spy master and his outing of his spies at the Special commission ,his writings in The Times with the forger Pigott [1887] trashing Parnell,and his other bigoted and destructive behaviour over Home Rule, tells me all I need to know about this man and his obsessive fears about "low class" immigrant Polish Jews.He seems to me,quite frankly, to have only avoided being sectioned at Colney Hatch by the skin of his teeth himself at various times in his life.I am thinking specifically of the press conference he called in 1910 ,to his Notting Hill house,where he admitted to the World"s Press he had written those lies about Parnell in The Times . Extraordinary behaviour at any time for a high ranking public servant to be engaged in.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks Chris does that go for Ramsgate and the Blue Dolfin?

There used to be a Blue Dolphin fish and chip shop in Winchester; fabulous food there, too - it's a shame it closed. A rather pointless aside, I know, except inasmuch as it throws up a trivial, but mildly diverting, "link" between Druitt and Kosminski.

[Chris]

Thanks Chris does that go for Ramsgate and the Blue Dolfin?

Probably not the Dolphin, as Mark was publican only relatively briefly (1918-1922) and in partnership with Edward Cecil Moore (who had interests in a number of East End pubs, and I suppose was the same ECM who was later Lord Mayor of London and was made a baronet).

We don't have any evidence about Ramsgate (or 171 Cable Street) either way.

[Robert]

Yes, Chris and Rob, a book would be very welcome.

[Stewart P Evans]

Anderson

Yes we've got that Norma, and its an interesting point of view but there is know proof or substance for those comments about Anderson. ask Martin Fido.

When it comes to Anderson Martin Fido is hardly impartial or objective. So why don't you stop referring to these Ripper authors in support of your dubious arguments, you just cause them embarrassment.

[joelhall]

William Fishman has written several brilliant books on the Jewish east end,as has Jerry White,Jeff.
A book on Kosminski will be fascinating I am sure,but in my view this suspect was just the figment of Anderson"s bigoted and racist imagination.

i doubt this was the case really. as i mentioned on another thread i think kosminski was, with a few others such as druitt, ostrog, simply the best of a bad lot at the time. just because they seem to be 'strong' suspects, we are given none of the evidence, nor an idea of just how strong they are.

and the reason i think people still favour him?

you know it really seems to me that kosminskis background is the difference here. because there are less records of his life, i believe he remains a suspect simply because we cannot prove he didnt do it, rather than because he have evidence against him.

the faults in the memo against the other 2 are apparent as we have the means to check the information, but this is trickier with kosminski.

i always adhere to the principle that to prove something its better to attempt to disprove it. thats what we should do with kosminski to see if his case holds weight.

joel

id really love to read robs book on kosminski. some seem so sure of his candidacy, but there is very little out there to convince anyone of his guilt.

my last point in the quote remains true. anyone seeking 'proof' will no doubt find it, and unbiased investigating seems dead in most works these days, sadly.