One on one with Stephen Senise

[Wickerman]

Quite the about-face there Packers, you might wanna sit down before you get dizzy.

Kennedy's story is not the same as Lewis's, and we've been over this too many times.

[Wickerman]

Evening News, 10th November 1888—

"Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she [Mrs Kennedy] saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before. She passed them without taking any notice, and went home to bed."

How can this story be true when [according to Hutchinson] at 3.00 am "the deceased" had been in Room 13 with Mister Astrakhan since around 2.15 am?

Alternatively, how can Hutchinson's story be true when [according to Mrs Kennedy] "the deceased" was outside The Britannia at 3.00 am?

Regards,

Simon

Most press accounts have Kennedy entering her parents house "about" 3.00 that morning.The exact time she passed the Britannia is not given.

Hutchinson's police statement appears to suggest he left the Court "about" 2:45.

[cnr]

the big break in the case...

While we're at it...

...it should be noted that stout is a kind of beer.

Lewis et al. meant he was short and a kind of beer.

See image of suspect, below.


Stephen

https://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Senise/e/B071HCHW3N/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

[cnr]

"stout" continued...

...seriously, though.

Here are two quick Victorian-era references, perfect for our purposes for obvious reasons, where "stout" is referenced in the context of build, not weight (or over-weight):

“rather stoutly built” (based on Schwartz) 1 October 1888, Star

"He appeared to be stoutish built" (James Brown, at the Stride inquest) 6 October, Times

Might I also suggest, that in the case of other witnesses/instances where "stout" is used free of any affixing reference to frame: try substituting it (or its relevant grammatical variant) for the word 'fat'; the result doesn't quite work in my opinion. Comparatively, it goes from being a natural enough expression to one, less-so, almost awkward.

For example. Sarah Lewis' "stout-looking man"* becomes, "fat-looking man".

* Inquest testimony, reported in the (London) Echo, 12 November 1888.

Maybe the best general understanding we could agree on is that the term existed on a continuum and meant both stocky of framework and heavier-set in terms of weight-to-height dimensions.


Stephen

https://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Senise/e/B071HCHW3N/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

[Abby Normal]

While we're at it...

...it should be noted that stout is a kind of beer.

Lewis et al. meant he was short and a kind of beer.

See image of suspect, below.


Stephen
https://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Senis...ne_cont_book_1

Now that was funny

[MrBarnett]

...seriously, though.

Here are two quick Victorian-era references, perfect for our purposes for obvious reasons, where "stout" is referenced in the context of build, not weight (or over-weight):

“rather stoutly built” (based on Schwartz) 1 October 1888, Star

"He appeared to be stoutish built" (James Brown, at the Stride inquest) 6 October, Times

Might I also suggest, that in the case of other witnesses/instances where "stout" is used free of any affixing reference to frame: try substituting it (or its relevant grammatical variant) for the word 'fat'; the result doesn't quite work in my opinion. Comparatively, it goes from being a natural enough expression to one, less-so, almost awkward.

For example. Sarah Lewis' "stout-looking man"* becomes, "fat-looking man".

* Inquest testimony, reported in the (London) Echo, 12 November 1888.

Maybe the best general understanding we could agree on is that the term existed on a continuum and meant both stocky of framework and heavier-set in terms of weight-to-height dimensions.


Stephen
https://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Senis...ne_cont_book_1

Stephen,

Why couldn't stout in any of your examples be a euphemism for fat?

That's my understanding of its meaning. Not large in a general sense, which would be described as 'big-boned' or 'heavy-set' , but plump, rotund - fat.

My opinion was not arrived at by googling but by hearing Eastenders, some of them Victorians, using the term.

Gary

[packers stem]

Quite the about-face there Packers, you might wanna sit down before you get dizzy.

Kennedy's story is not the same as Lewis's, and we've been over this too many times.

Missing the point aren't you
Yes the two Kennedy stories (which are both completely different ) are themselves different to both Lewis stories .There are four entirely different stories between the two of them .
Yes , we have been over these things many times ..... and this should have sunk in by now surely .
But the main problem is differentiating between the two people due to the similarities in a part of their tales .
If Debs comes across a real Mrs Kennedy that's great news as I'll never have to concern myself with Hutchinson ever again 😀

[packers stem]

Stephen,

Why couldn't stout in any of your examples be a euphemism for fat?

That's my understanding of its meaning. Not large in a general sense, which would be described as 'big-boned' or 'heavy-set' , but plump, rotund - fat.

My opinion was not arrived at by googling but by hearing Eastenders, some of them Victorians, using the term.

Gary

One of the relevant sections of the Whitehall torso inquest

Was the woman stout? - Not very stout, but thoroughly plump; fully developed, but not abnormally fat. The inference is that she was a tall, big woman. The hand was long, and was the hand of a woman not accustomed to manual labour

It should be noted that prior to this Bond had already confirmed that she would have been a large ,well nourished woman .

It's from the telegraph on October 9th
Required reading and shows quite clearly that Bond and the coroner were both perfectly aware of the meaning of the word stout .

She wasn't VERY stout ,thoroughly plump but not abnormally fat .....couldn't be misinterpreted

[packers stem]

...seriously, though.

Here are two quick Victorian-era references, perfect for our purposes for obvious reasons, where "stout" is referenced in the context of build, not weight (or over-weight):

“rather stoutly built” (based on Schwartz) 1 October 1888, Star

"He appeared to be stoutish built" (James Brown, at the Stride inquest) 6 October, Times

Might I also suggest, that in the case of other witnesses/instances where "stout" is used free of any affixing reference to frame: try substituting it (or its relevant grammatical variant) for the word 'fat'; the result doesn't quite work in my opinion. Comparatively, it goes from being a natural enough expression to one, less-so, almost awkward.

For example. Sarah Lewis' "stout-looking man"* becomes, "fat-looking man".

* Inquest testimony, reported in the (London) Echo, 12 November 1888.

Maybe the best general understanding we could agree on is that the term existed on a continuum and meant both stocky of framework and heavier-set in terms of weight-to-height dimensions.


Stephen
https://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Senis...ne_cont_book_1

Your star quote was translated from Hungarian yet stout still appesrs !! I seriously doubt the Hungarian language has as many varied words for overweight as English does .
Fact is nobody called anybody 'fat'.... it was impolite .
The polite words were stout or portly .Both having an identical meaning .
All those Berner Street quotes mean us that the fat guy attacked her while the thin pipeman(described as 'not so stout' ) came out of the doorway

[packers stem]

And lastly in such poor lighting and in overcoats you aren't going to be able to judge upper body .
You may however notice a bit of a gut if you see them side on especially

[cnr]

Stephen,
Why couldn't stout in any of your examples be a euphemism for fat?
That's my understanding of its meaning. Not large in a general sense, which would be described as 'big-boned' or 'heavy-set' , but plump, rotund - fat.
My opinion was not arrived at by googling but by hearing Eastenders, some of them Victorians, using the term.
Gary

Thanks, Gary.

To clarify. I take the reference to "built" in those two particular examples cited in my post, to refer to 'build' or frame (not weight); but fair enough if you're saying that I shouldn't preclude weight from entering the equation. I can see that point of view.

My conventional take of "stoutish-built" would include a degree of stockiness / bulkiness of frame, but as I suggested earlier, maybe consensus rests on that continuum meaning both corpulence (in terms of weight-to-height dimensions) and stockiness of frame.

It may lie neither here nor there in terms of the two poles of that spectrum if the attached image is an indication. It's Ferdinand Fermo Fissi's take on Blotchy (Famous Crimes, Harold Furniss, 1903) with the accompanying comment, "A Short Stout Man".

I don't propose it to be the be-all and end-all, but it's maybe a fair indication - being of Fissi / Furniss' broadly contemporary view of what was meant by "Stout" - and might provide a rough idea of where along that continuum a general understanding might rest.

BTW, I can see that the issue of "Short"-ness might muddy the waters a little, but visually it's the only image I could readily think of that might be helpful - if I get the chance, I'm going to keep looking over the weekend.


Stephen

https://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Senise/e/B071HCHW3N/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

[cnr]

speak Yiddish to me...

Your star quote was translated from Hungarian yet stout still appesrs !! I seriously doubt the Hungarian language has as many varied words for overweight as English does. Fact is nobody called anybody 'fat'.... it was impolite.The polite words were stout or portly .Both having an identical meaning. All those Berner Street quotes mean us that the fat guy attacked her while the thin pipeman(described as 'not so stout' ) came out of the doorway

Yes, I'm aware Schwartz's evidence was courtesy of an interpreter.

Brown's, which was not, uses a near identical term, "stoutish built" (versus "stoutly built").

I don't understand why the Hungarian language would have less words available to it than English for the various terms under discussion ? For those of us so blessed to know more than just English, it allows us an intimate understanding of the richness of vocabulary and quirks of language, expressed as a universal medium. Why would English trump Hungarian or any other language for that matter, ipso facto?

Further, if Schwartz and friend were leaning on Yiddish as well as their Hungarian (and whose to say it wasn't the other way around), they may have had scope for even greater depth to their word choice. Yiddish, being a hybrid, is renowned for its rich vocabulary and turn of phrase.

In fact, just on a peripheral note: is there anything to rule out Yiddish as the language, at least in part, used between between Schwartz and his interpreting-friend in this instance ?


Stephen

https://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Senise/e/B071HCHW3N/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

[packers stem]

Yes, I'm aware Schwartz's evidence was courtesy of an interpreter.

Brown's, which was not, uses a near identical term, "stoutish built" (versus "stoutly built").

I don't understand why the Hungarian language would have less words available to it than English for the various terms under discussion ? For those of us so blessed to know more than just English, it allows us an intimate understanding of the richness of vocabulary and quirks of language, expressed as a universal medium. Why would English trump Hungarian or any other language for that matter, ipso facto?

Further, if Schwartz and friend were leaning on Yiddish as well as their Hungarian (and whose to say it wasn't the other way around), they may have had scope for even greater depth to their word choice. Yiddish, being a hybrid, is renowned for its rich vocabulary and turn of phrase.

In fact, just on a peripheral note: is there anything to rule out Yiddish as the language, at least in part, used between between Schwartz and his interpreting-friend in this instance ?


Stephen
https://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Senis...ne_cont_book_1

English is a concoction of various languages influenced by a number of invasions from various countries over thousands of years all contributing to the language .
This is why we have a wide range of words all having similar meaning .
Hence why i said i doubt Hungarian would have the range of synonyms .
We only have the reporter's word that the interpretation was from Hungarian and without anything else to go on it would be highly speculative to suggest anything else .
All we've got as evidence of the usage of the word 'stout' is what hasn't been addressed , the inquest conversation between Bond and the coroner which I posted above .
Browns 'stoutish built' is almost certainly still fat ,podgy,portly , overweight " .....
Just that Brown ,like everybody else , was being polite in his wording .
We can accept ,I'm sure ,that overweight people were in existence somewhere at this time .Therefore common sense dictates that there must have been a word used to describe them , and yet it seems that no word was ever used to describe them if we don't believe it to be stout , strange that ....
Now unless we were a nation of bodybuilders then I suggest that the people of the LVP were using the word stout , as Bond did , to describe the stomach .
Victorian politeness and nothing more

[Abby Normal]

another thread that has gone down the semantic rabbit hole.
Ugh.

[Wickerman]

....
If Debs comes across a real Mrs Kennedy that's great news as I'll never have to concern myself with Hutchinson ever again 😀

Lewis & Kennedy's account of what happened Wednesday night is the same, because they were together.
It's only their Friday morning statements which differ, because they arrived separately.
What Lewis saw that morning does not match what Kennedy saw, neither do their times match.
There is no cause to suggest they were the same woman. So to talk about a 'real' Mrs Kennedy only feeds into this false narrative.

As has been pointed out before, Lewis's account serves to confirm Hutchinson's story in so far as she saw a man & woman in the street while this lurker was standing opposite the court. She didn't describe the man, but she did offer some details about the woman. That she was the worse for drink, & without a hat, and that this couple both walked up the court.

None of this was recounted by Kennedy, but it is of some importance to acknowledge that Kennedy was credited with seeing Kelly alive around 3:00 am, standing outside the Britannia.

Once we accept these two accounts, Hutchinson's story is of no more importance. Astrachan is no longer a suspect, and Hutch himself is off the hook too.