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  • #76
    Originally posted by packers stem View Post
    Sarah Lewis (who's testimony should be dismissed by anyone serious, as taking her two Kennedy attempts in the press into account, made the inquest her FOURTH completely different statement ) claims to have spotted a rather short fat guy .
    I don't know of any serious researcher who has dismissed the testimony of Sarah Lewis.
    As it happens, and I think rightly so, the Coroner was more interested in the man Lewis saw outside the Britannia that night/morning, as opposed to the 'lurker' she saw in Dorset St.
    That was a missed opportunity, in my opinion.
    Regards, Jon S.

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    • #77
      Hi Jon.
      Polly Nichols ''Look what a jolly Bonnet I have got''
      Annie Chapman bonnet .
      Eddowes Bonnet.
      Liz Stride Bonnet.
      So that points surely to the reverse, they all had a Bonnet. and they were all accosted by the killer.
      Regards Richard.

      Comment


      • #78
        Unfortunately in her two Kennedy press statements there was no lurker .
        In her statement there was a man talking to a woman (which then got crossed out 😀 ) and she couldn't describe him.
        It was only when she hit the bright lights of the coutroom she started singing like a canary , she could now describe the little fat guy .... and his hat even down to the colour 😂
        It's ridiculous
        These serious researchers you mention should take a serious look
        Compare her nonsense with the rock solid testimony of Caroline Maxwell and well ..... there's no comparison
        You can lead a horse to water.....

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by richardnunweek View Post
          Hi Jon.
          Polly Nichols ''Look what a jolly Bonnet I have got''
          Annie Chapman bonnet .
          Eddowes Bonnet.
          Liz Stride Bonnet.
          So that points surely to the reverse, they all had a Bonnet. and they were all accosted by the killer.
          Regards Richard.
          I said "young women", this cultural sensitivity didn't apply to the older set.
          There's plenty of background on this, it's not like I'm drawing attention to something unique.
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by packers stem View Post
            Unfortunately in her two Kennedy press statements there was no lurker .
            In her statement there was a man talking to a woman (which then got crossed out 😀 ) and she couldn't describe him.
            It was only when she hit the bright lights of the coutroom she started singing like a canary , she could now describe the little fat guy .... and his hat even down to the colour 😂
            It's ridiculous
            These serious researchers you mention should take a serious look
            Compare her nonsense with the rock solid testimony of Caroline Maxwell and well ..... there's no comparison
            You're argument is based on a false premise.
            It doesn't matter that you 'think' Lewis & Kennedy were the same, that's an opinion, and you're argument is based on an opinion not yet established - false premise.
            Regards, Jon S.

            Comment


            • #81
              Hi Jon,
              Point taken about the respectability of wearing a hat.
              That being , it would mean that Kelly initially was not intending to be available , yet an hour or so later returned home to dress down , and resumed on the pick up.?
              Could it be she was intending to meet someone , who for some reason let her down, so she returned to her room to dress down.?
              Regards Richard.

              Comment


              • #82
                And now we have Sarah Lewis being disparaged as a witness.

                Like I said...lunacy

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by richardnunweek View Post
                  Hi Jon,
                  Point taken about the respectability of wearing a hat.
                  That being , it would mean that Kelly initially was not intending to be available , yet an hour or so later returned home to dress down , and resumed on the pick up.?
                  Could it be she was intending to meet someone , who for some reason let her down, so she returned to her room to dress down.?
                  Regards Richard.
                  How about this suggestion; she wore a coat and bonnet when she first went out because it was raining. Later the rain had stopped so when she went out again she left the now damp bonnet and coat at home to dry.
                  Plausible?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                    You're argument is based on a false premise.
                    It doesn't matter that you 'think' Lewis & Kennedy were the same, that's an opinion, and you're argument is based on an opinion not yet established - false premise.
                    False premise ?
                    Are you suggesting there was a Mrs Kennedy ?
                    Even if it can be proven to be so ,and I've looked at it many times and I fear you will struggle to do so , then you've still got the issue that in her statement she couldn't describe the man she saw ,talking to a woman (see the jumbled Kennedy influence ) , and he wasn't wearing a wideawake hat ....a black one .... and he wasn't apparently displaying agitation in watching the court ....
                    The word 'unreliable' doesn't even come close to doing it justice
                    She is the corner stone of any Hutchinson theory .
                    It's complete garbage
                    How many young men in their twenties ,out of work for weeks ,just walked home 14 miles would be likely to be described as overweight in any way do you think ?
                    If you want to follow this nonsense, good luck
                    Last edited by packers stem; 06-03-2018, 11:15 AM.
                    You can lead a horse to water.....

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                      And now we have Sarah Lewis being disparaged as a witness.

                      Like I said...lunacy
                      About time it was questioned isn't it ?
                      You can lead a horse to water.....

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Evening News, 10th November 1888

                        "Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she [Mrs Kennedy] saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before. She passed them without taking any notice, and went home to bed."

                        How can this story be true when [according to Hutchinson] at 3.00 am "the deceased" had been in Room 13 with Mister Astrakhan since around 2.15 am?

                        Alternatively, how can Hutchinson's story be true when [according to Mrs Kennedy] "the deceased" was outside The Britannia at 3.00 am?

                        Regards,

                        Simon
                        Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by packers stem View Post
                          Sorry to disappoint everyone but all the talk of broad shoulders and powerfully built etc ....
                          The word 'stout' in the LVP meant nothing more than fat or overweight .
                          This is perfectly demonstrated in a conversation between the coroner and Bond at the Whitehall case ; telegraph October 9th
                          Sarah Lewis (who's testimony should be dismissed by anyone serious, as taking her two Kennedy attempts in the press into account, made the inquest her FOURTH completely different statement ) claims to have spotted a rather short fat guy .
                          Irrespective of what people perceive 'stout' to mean today , back then it was no more than a polite word for fat .
                          Hopefully broad shouldered man can now disappear into the large collection of ripperology myths that have built up over the years 😉
                          Hi Nick
                          Not that it matters but I did a review of Victorian female convict licence records on this question a few years back. In those records weight and height were given plus there were four categories for body size to put weight vs height in to ratio including the categories 'fat' and 'stocky' and of all the women described as 'stocky' few of them had a BMI that would be classed as overweight today.
                          I can't find it again though.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by packers stem View Post
                            False premise ?
                            Are you suggesting there was a Mrs Kennedy ?
                            Even if it can be proven to be so ,and I've looked at it many times and I fear you will struggle to do so , then you've still got the issue that in her statement she couldn't describe the man she saw ,talking to a woman (see the jumbled Kennedy influence ) , and he wasn't wearing a wideawake hat ....a black one .... and he wasn't apparently displaying agitation in watching the court ....
                            The word 'unreliable' doesn't even come close to doing it justice
                            She is the corner stone of any Hutchinson theory .
                            It's complete garbage
                            How many young men in their twenties ,out of work for weeks ,just walked home 14 miles would be likely to be described as overweight in any way do you think ?
                            If you want to follow this nonsense, good luck
                            I was looking at this the other week. I was studying the Catholic records for Commercial and Underwood Rd and discovered that Mrs Paumier the chestnut seller had half siblings named Kennedy. I haven't figured out if that means anything yet.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Hiya Debs
                              It is a minefield but in the Whitehall Torso inquest it's clear that Bond's idea of 'stout' was somewhat larger than "thoroughly plump" .
                              I appreciate it was a woman he was talking about but before they had reached discussing if she was stout they had already discussed her being a large ,well nourished woman .
                              I can only take from it that stout related (in their opinion ) to the stomach rather than the overall size and bone structure of the torso .... taking us back to Lewis , if there was doubt regarding the meaning of the word I would have expected McDonald to ask her to confirm .
                              We can only assume that McDonald perceived the word the same way as the coroner at Whitehall .
                              Probably at the moment , the best we've got to go on unless more contemporary mentions of it come to light
                              Last edited by packers stem; 06-03-2018, 01:28 PM.
                              You can lead a horse to water.....

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                                I was looking at this the other week. I was studying the Catholic records for Commercial and Underwood Rd and discovered that Mrs Paumier the chestnut seller had half siblings named Kennedy. I haven't figured out if that means anything yet.
                                That is a find and a half Debs 😊
                                Great work as always
                                So there is the tantalising possibility that all three Paumier , Kennedy and Lewis were correct in telling the story of the mysterious man with the bag .
                                That would be interesting , it would also put Kennedy's final sighting that Simon mentioned above right at the top of the tree .
                                Still doesn't excuse the Lewis testimony differing so markedly from her statement which makes her a little unreliable
                                You can lead a horse to water.....

                                Comment

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