False Flag: Jack The Ripper with author Stephen Senise

[Elamarna]

5

Hi Steve,

I've just made a few quick comments (below) by way of discussing some of the points you raise.

It was the nature of the barbaric, or 'non-English', nature of murders themselves which was meant to provide the inculpatory signature - and indeed, it did: note racist street talk and anti-Jewish riot on the day Chapman was killed.

I propose that JTR used whatever was at his disposal to make his point, and that he evolved in being able to throw the switch this way or that, as circumstance permitted or called out to him. As a killer, he strikes me as a quintessential opportunist. And just like real life, nothing in this case is perfectly static, black over here, white over there. The lab approach is not really on offer - I don't say that disparagingly; maybe just as a way of acknowledging what we're left to grapple with.

Dorset Street might have been considered an 'English island in a Jewish sea', demographically. As I argue in the two editions of my book, circumstance may well have led JTR to that particular island - but the island was still in Spitalfields and linked to a series. The overkill involved (literally), was supposed to get the message across beyond all reasonable doubt. He overplayed his hand I believe, and the resulting outpouring of horror backfired on him - hence the need to wander into Commercial Street police station and re-establish the narrative.

There is evidence of migratory outbreaks east along Whitechapel Road and Commercial Road, from the main area of Jewish settlement. Certainly, both the attacks on Nichols and Wilson, happened not far from Jewish cemeteries. And we have evidence that already, around Bucks Row, there was a notable Jewish presence - see quote below. Or alternatively (since you have 'Jewbaiter', pls refer to the 'end of chapter 13 notes and map). This is from the Echo edition of 6 September, 1888 - the day Nichols was buried.

There were large crowds around Buck’s-row, this afternoon, the numbers being augmented by many Jews, now observing one of their special holidays.

...and thanks for your kind comments about my research. Also, please note my new sign-off, below - it's probably the most important part of this post.

Stephen - I'm not here to convince anyone; I just want to go home.
https://www.tweeddailynews.com.au/ne...mpage/3177827/

Thank you for the considered reply,
I will just refer to Bucks Row, as its my main area of interest at present.
The Echo article is interesting, however the level of Jewish occupation increased significantly once one reached Bakers Row at the end of Whites Row.
As I said to Gareth I do not consider the cemetry to be close enough to the murder site to imply any link to the Jewish community to the locals. And the first who were accused were the workers at Harrison, Barber which suggests the locals made no such connection.

Sorry Stephen, i am not enamoured with the ritualistic slaughter idea. My sole issue here is i just do not see any attempt by the killer in Bucks Row to point at the Jewish community.
I sadly remain unconvinced, but we never all agree.

However, i do like the book, and it gives great insight into the situation in 1888.

And thank you again for taking the effort to reply so promptly and courteously



Steve

[cnr]

Hi Gareth,
Yes i of course am well aware of the cementry, i have some photos of it in the forth coming book, but its not close enough in my opinion to imply any sort of Link to the Jewish community.

Hi again Steve,

Not to harp on, but I just make the quick point that the cemetery does feature in an apocryphal and anti-Semitic episode of the Ripper tale.

One of the men who found Nichols’ body supposedly pointed in the direction of the Jewish cemetery and said that the murderer was “probably some sneaking Yid who wouldn’t pay for his fun”*.

Stephen

https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-the-jack-the-ripper-murders-an-elaborate-anti-semitic-frameup/

* cited in, The Identity of Jack the Ripper, David McCormick (London, 1959), p.26

[cnr]

Elamarna...

Thanks for all your comments, Steve.

Just to be clear. I'm not proposing a 'ritual murder' angle in and of itself - there's no such thing as 'Jewish ritual murder'. Just a twisted individual's understanding of the garbage he was reading in the newspapers; ie the racist notions regarding the blood libel swirling around in those years. His was a dramatic re-interpretation of all the hype, for his own purposes.

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing or having different perspectives. After 130 years, the case demands it IMHO.

All the best with your work, Steve.

Stephen

https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-the-jack-the-ripper-murders-an-elaborate-anti-semitic-frameup/

[Elamarna]

Hi again Steve,

Not to harp on, but I just make the quick point that the cemetery does feature in an apocryphal and anti-Semitic episode of the Ripper tale.

One of the men who found Nichols’ body supposedly pointed in the direction of the Jewish cemetery and said that the murderer was “probably some sneaking Yid who wouldn’t pay for his fun”*.

Stephen

https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-the-jack-the-ripper-murders-an-elaborate-anti-semitic-frameup/

* cited in, The Identity of Jack the Ripper, David McCormick (London, 1959), p.26

Stephen
The issue I have there is that such a report does not fit with the comments of the Two who found Nichols, Lechmere and Paul at all. Indeed they were not even sure she was dead according to the press (Paul Lloyds Weekly News) and the inquest reports. One wonders who such a comment was made to?


I dont suppose you have the source McCormick claimed for that.
I strongly suspect it is not factual.



Steve

[cnr]

Elamarna...previous post...

Yes, I agree.

It's why I was super-keen to stress the word, 'apocryphal' . Oh, yeah.

The point I was making, was regards the potential for the cemetery to fall into the web of perceptions regarding the murder.

I look forward to the findings of your aforementioned, upcoming research.

Stephen

https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-the-jack-the-ripper-murders-an-elaborate-anti-semitic-frameup/

[Sam Flynn]

If it's in McCormick, there's a good chance it is apocryphal

[cnr]

If it's in McCormick, there's a good chance it is apocryphal

Gareth, that was exactly my assumption. And as far as assumptions go, I stand by it.

But to be sure, I did try to track it down to a source which predated McCormick's reference. For the life of me, I can't remember how that finished up. Suffice it to say, that the quote in my book/s cites McCormick (with disclaimer-adjective firmly affixed). That suggests, I may not have been able to trace it back any further.

However, I've always privately wondered whether McCormick might not have been picking up on some folk anecdote with that reference - giving us a window into the scuttlebutt of that moment. During the course of his lifetime and research (let's be kind and call it that), there would have been people around who were kids during the Ripper scare, or who had family members who recalled the period with some degree of immediacy. It's a possibility that such a current was McCormick's source...

The question remains, where did he come up with that tale ? I suspect the worst, but allow for the possibility that it may offer something vaguely meaningful in the broader sense.

Stephen

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/was-jack-the-ripper-really-a-hate-spreading-antisemite-1.435905

[Herlock Sholmes]

If it's in McCormick, there's a good chance it is apocryphal

Gareth, are you implying that Mr McCormick was a less than reliable source

You’ll be saying that Pedachenko wasnt the ripper next

[cnr]

further to my previous post...

Whether McCormick was actually correct in attributing that quote to one of the witnesses (unlikely), recording the last breath of contemporary rumours, tapping into latter-day folk variations, or even if his imagination simply got the better of him; the point is that the association between the Nichols murder and the Jewish cemetery is an easy enough one to make.

Stephen

https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-the-jack-the-ripper-murders-an-elaborate-anti-semitic-frameup/

[cnr]

...Donald McCormick, of course. Not David. Er-hmm.

Stephen

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/was-jack-the-ripper-really-a-hate-spreading-antisemite-1.435905

[cnr]

I tend to wonder if the Jews were scapegoats for most all of the crime in the East End at the time, as most recent immigrants as a class usually are, so that if a crime is committed by a non-Jew and it remains unsolved for any length of time, eventually Jews of that certain class would be suspected by a healthy percentage of the gentile population anyway.

Thanks from bring this up Jonathan.

According to testimony before the parliamentary select committee (immigration), the Jews were at least as generally law-abiding as anyone else, and I was left with the impression that they were more or less well-regarded by the police. Specifically, by Arnold who gave evidence on two occasions, representing H Division.

The main point of contention in this regard, a relatively minor one, seems to have been to do with their propensity for loitering on the streets - which my research suggests, may have been related to residential tenancy issues. Specifically, overcrowding.

More concerning to Arnold, seemed to be those outbreaks of personal violence, which seemed common enough in the East End in those days, by the "lower order of British roughs" and directed at "the foreigners".

As to the Jews getting the blame by their neighbours for all sorts of things, that could well be true. The dynamic you refer to, is unfortunately, a bit of a universal one.

Getting the blame for 'ritual murder', on the other hand, was a very ethno-specific accusation in this instance. It's not a simple question of people complaining about the neighbourhood 'going to blazes'. Or a rise in petty theft or drunkenness - both areas which, I suspect, the local Cockneys would have been able to hold their own. We're talking about the murder-mutilation of women at a time when that libel was already widely associated with that very community.

I am aware that you've been dealing with my book for over a week, so I sincerely hope you don't feel like you've been beaten over the head with it. I'm sensitive to that possibility as I can assure you that I occasionally feel like I've been beaten over the head with it. Beaten over the head like a wrestler looking the wrong way.

Thanks for all your interest, Jonathan. Much appreciated.

Stephen

https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-the-jack-the-ripper-murders-an-elaborate-anti-semitic-frameup/

[cnr]

I can't recall off the top of my head what the Jewish connection to Dorset Street is but, if there was one, I'm sure Stephen will explain.

Hi Gareth, thanks for the opener.

By the time of the Kelly murder, the narrative had been well and truly established.

The luxury that afforded the killer, I propose, was to be able to ramp up the volume on the violence ie the sheer outrage that would be felt by the community. Particularly, if we are mindful of what was being printed in the 'papers (and by the Vienna correspondents, specifically) about accused Jewish butchers going around killing women, women being "frightfully mutilated" etc. during that interim between the night of the double-event and Miller's Court. See my comments on the Ritter, Tisza-Eszlar, and Leskau affairs in edition 155 of Ripperologist, 'Dear Rip' section.

At the end of the day, Dorset Street may have been an island of British Cockney high ground, but it was still in the Spitalfields/Whitechapel ghetto, and the murder was identifiable as part of an already established series.

Stephen

https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-the-jack-the-ripper-murders-an-elaborate-anti-semitic-frameup/

[jmenges]

I am aware that you've been dealing with my book for over a week, so I sincerely hope you don't feel like you've been beaten over the head with it. I'm sensitive to that possibility as I can assure you that I occasionally feel like I've been beaten over the head with it. Beaten over the head like a wrestler looking the wrong way.

Thanks for all your interest, Jonathan. Much appreciated.

No not at all. Perhaps we can get together next Saturday or Sunday morning (your time) to talk more about Hutchinson?

JM

[Elamarna]

Whether McCormick was actually correct in attributing that quote to one of the witnesses (unlikely), recording the last breath of contemporary rumours, tapping into latter-day folk variations, or even if his imagination simply got the better of him; the point is that the association between the Nichols murder and the Jewish cemetery is an easy enough one to make.

Stephen
https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-t...mitic-frameup/

Not for all of us Stephen, i find it a stretch too far.

Steve

[Varqm]

Here is my view on Hotchinson, http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10578,it was because the Kelly inquest was illegally (against the Coroners Act **) stopped.But it would be interesting to hear Stephens view on Hutch.

** On why: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10404

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