Tumblety: The Hidden Truth

[jmenges]

Hi JM

Is there any reference in the material to Tumblety being accused of the Ripper crimes, or to the four indecency charges? I would have thought that would be a sine qua non for anyone wanting to blacken his name.

I can only go off of what I've been told as I've yet to see Norris' deposition in the flesh and that is that Norris brought up the Whitechapel murders without being asked anything about them, that his statement in total was a bit of a rant, meandering to and fro, and since the topic at hand was specifically relating to Tumblety's state of mind circa 1901-1903, the judge wasn't interested in delving into the more salacious episodes from Tumblety's past.

Edit-and I don't believe the London gross indecency charges were brought up, but having not personally viewed the files I stand to be corrected.

JM

[Ally]

Honestly I can't even imagine what money would have made it worth the one guy's while to come forward with that statement. I was literally laughing my ass of at his "well sure there I am taking money, and clothes from guys and apparently willing to wrestle around naked, but I'm going to have to punch him in the face for thinking I'm 'thataway'." Obviously that's not a direct quote and I can't remember the guy's name right off the top of my head.

But considering it was different circumstances and sources, I can't imagine so many people willing to lie about the same thing. And why THAT? If they wanted to discredit him, having a tiny penis isn't really like... massively injurious to invalidating a will.

[Robert]

"The only motivation that I can think of to cause all of these witnesses to lie on sworn depositions would be the promise of money. Bribed to give certain false evidence in order to benefit those who were contesting Tumblety's will. So unless and until a researcher can track down whether or not payment was made to these witnesses in order to make up dirt on the good doctor, we should assume that they were all likely telling the truth. That's how I look at it anyway."

Hi JM

Is there any reference in the material to Tumblety being accused of the Ripper crimes, or to the four indecency charges? I would have thought that would be a sine qua non for anyone wanting to blacken his name.

[Steadmund Brand]

Hi Ozzy,

Tumblety was never confused about his mother and sisters, and was acutely aware of the lives of his siblings and their children. Tumblety was the 11th child, two of them brothers and the rest sisters. He came over during the Great Famine, or Potato Famine, from Ireland with mom and dad, but some of his older siblings were in the US prior to the Famine. His father died within a couple of years of arrival and mom died in 1873.

The last time Tumblety visited Rochester was around the same time his brother Lawrence died in 1898. He had been ill for a full year before his death. Tumblety outlived all of his siblings except for one, Jane. She died in 1904.

Sincerely,

Mike

I still think Tumblety may have visited Rochester/Buffalo around the turn of the century.. maybe in 1901... can't prove it yet, but I think so


Steadmund Brand

[mklhawley]

Hi Ozzy,

Tumblety was never confused about his mother and sisters, and was acutely aware of the lives of his siblings and their children. Tumblety was the 11th child, two of them brothers and the rest sisters. He came over during the Great Famine, or Potato Famine, from Ireland with mom and dad, but some of his older siblings were in the US prior to the Famine. His father died within a couple of years of arrival and mom died in 1873.

The last time Tumblety visited Rochester was around the same time his brother Lawrence died in 1898. He had been ill for a full year before his death. Tumblety outlived all of his siblings except for one, Jane. She died in 1904.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Ozzy]

So he had a mother = sister as well.
I wonder how much this still goes on. Years after leaving school I bumped into somebody who I was in the same school class with. After the usual how have you been etc he told me that his father turned up. What do you mean I said. It turned out the person who he thought was his father was actually his grandfather. The woman who he thought was his mother was actually his grandmother and the woman who he thought was his sister was actually his mother.
It wasn't the first time I'd heard of this in families. But this was the first time I'd heard of it happening to somebody I knew.

Thanks for the podcast to all involved.

[Steadmund Brand]

Ally Ally Ally....."beat you over the head with it" is just an expression...no need for the wooden bat!!!....Hope you are feeling better.....

Steadmund Brand

[Ally]

As for being on the Nyquil.....what you couldn't share....then I wouldn't have sounded like Vin Diesel in need of a nap ��

Steadmund Brand

It gets better. I managed to hit myself on the head yesterday with what is basically a wood bat so now I am rocking an awesome concussion as well. I ain't smart.

Just so you all know that the edit wasn't made to make Ally sound crazy.

Yeah....sure it wasn't....

As to the rest as I am responding to a lot of posts in a lump, I think it's clear that Tumblety actually had a condition, whether micro-penis as seem apparent or true hermaphrodite is unknown but regardless. To get back to something in the podcast that Mike said to "look up" and which I didn't really need to but others are free to do so, I want to reiterate a point I made. Having a preoccupation with the size of his manhood points away from Tumblety having a Narcisisstic Personality Disorder. Yes Narcissists can have feelings of inferiority but it's the inferiority of realizing that their outsized perceptions of themselves don't match reality. The they think they're a 12 and they are actually a 6. Being confronted every single day with the evidence that you are, quite literally an inferior man would be more likely to result in an overcompensating inferiority complex that gears towards aggression as a compensation technique than a NPD.

[Steadmund Brand]

Robert...thank you for posting what Joe wrote

The book Mike will be putting out will be a great read (I know because I gave been lucky enough to read quite a bit of it)...and will answer and probably raise many more questions about Dr. T. , and as he said there is so much that wont even make this book (possibly more to come from Mike?). Working with Mike has been a pleasure, and I look forward to more work....As others have said Tumblety is such a fascinating character, and it made me go back to work on a project I have been kicking around on non-ripper aspects of Tumbletys life....hopefully that is something I will complete soon.

Steadmund Brand

[jmenges]

I did edit out a mini-discussion of what Ted Bundy was diagnosed as and how it conflicts with Mike using him as a comparison with Tumblety. I thought that Ally's comments still made sense without the Bundy material but if its made Ally's point confusing I apologize. Sorry, Ally.
I also cut out a whole thing I said about Bundy too, concerning the suggestion he was raised to believe his mother was his sister and the realization he was misled is deemed a traumatic event that fed his murderous hatred of women, and how that idea (mother=sister) is now looked upon by some Bundy experts as a myth. Just so you all know that the edit wasn't made to make Ally sound crazy.

What Robert posted from Joe Chetcuti is possibly the most important fact about these revelations, and something that Mike and Brian both reiterated in the podcast: That these statements were from sworn witnesses who did not know each other, seemingly recalled some of these specific events (like the "disemboweling all night-walkers" comment) without being coached or led, and cross-examined by attorneys. Some, like Norris, admitting to homosexual acts.

The only motivation that I can think of to cause all of these witnesses to lie on sworn depositions would be the promise of money. Bribed to give certain false evidence in order to benefit those who were contesting Tumblety's will. So unless and until a researcher can track down whether or not payment was made to these witnesses in order to make up dirt on the good doctor, we should assume that they were all likely telling the truth. That's how I look at it anyway.

JM

[mklhawley]

Hi all,

I was amazed at how much Jonathan and Ally could pull out in just a couple of hours, while the evidence is in volumes. New info is still being discovered. What is interesting is, I had enough material for a new book even before this opportunity came up, and then these document corroborate everything. We could not get to everything, but 2017 is a good year.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Steadmund Brand]

Oh, no debate there....that's what I was trying to say...he WAS diagnosed, but people will always debate it...as with everything....but with Tumblety as he wasn't we will never know.....and I know you didn't mean the literal "you"...as you know my take on it....and I can't speak for Mike, but I would assume what he meant was they possibly had the same condition.....not that it matters as these were TOTALLY different kinds of killings if the theory (Mike's) is correct ...

As for being on the Nyquil.....what you couldn't share....then I wouldn't have sounded like Vin Diesel in need of a nap ��

Steadmund Brand

[Ally]

Good point Ally... and what with Tumblety being dead over 100 years, we will never know for sure if he was NPD, or APD.. or what he may or may not have had. As for Bundy....he was diagnosed APD, however there are people who debate that and do claim he did indeed have NPD and still others who believe he had RAD (Reactive Attachment Disorder)...I don't think we can ever know for sure with Bundy either (yes he was at the time diagnosed APD, but that, as we all know could be different if done today..)

Steadmund Brand

And people can speculate to their hearts content but as none of these people ever sat with him and did any sort of professional assessment on him we must default to the ones who did. And we certainly can't claim that he was diagnosed with something he wasn't to bolster a claim against a suspect you believe was jack and a diagnosis you believe he had but he wasn't diagnosed with either. (That's the hypothetical 'you' not the literal you. )

[GUT]

Can't open on my iPad, have anew computer arriving, hope I can listen then. But I'm sure most of it will be great.

[Abby Normal]

got about a third of the way through it. interesting we have Norris who knew him and said tumblety thought street walkers should be killed and disemboweled a few years before the murders and had knives and surgical equipment. That alone should bump him up a notch because we have motive, afore mentioned MO and that he carried knives. Motive, means and opportunity (as he was there).