Tumblety: The Hidden Truth

[mklhawley]

Hi all,

Excellent discussion, although Ally, you may be surprised that I disagree with your opinion that Tumblety was absolutely not Jack the Ripper, since I'm not convinced you have seen all the new evidence (even in The Ripper's Haunts). There is more (as Jonathan just found out a bit more). Norris' deposition had more than this, but it's not just Norris' deposition. Yes, it absolutely corroborates Tumblety as a misogynist, especially when you take into account the testimony of Frank Widner, the lawyer Riordan loved, Simpson, Judge Papin, etc. Their testimony was quite damning.

Keep in mind, this man (Norris) was sworn under oath and he had an excellent reputation with the police. Norris was intimately close to this man each Mardis Gras before 1888 and after. Of course, he would remember this, especially when he saw his knives and heard Dr. T say all night walkers should be disemboweled. It was significant enough for him to approach the chief of police! He even said he tried to avoid Tumblety, but Tumblety did indeed hound a young man who he favored.

This material deserves to be ripped apart by everyone (including people who hate my guts) and I promise it will come out. I just can't do it now.

Ripper peer review is awesome.

Sincerely,

Mike

[GUT]

Hi all,

Excellent discussion, although Ally, you may be surprised that I disagree with your opinion that Tumblety was absolutely not Jack the Ripper, since I'm not convinced you have seen all the new evidence (even in The Ripper's Haunts). There is more (as Jonathan just found out a bit more). Norris' deposition had more than this, but it's not just Norris' deposition. Yes, it absolutely corroborates Tumblety as a misogynist, especially when you take into account the testimony of Frank Widner, the lawyer Riordan loved, Simpson, Judge Papin, etc. Their testimony was quite damning.

Keep in mind, this man (Norris) was sworn under oath and he had an excellent reputation with the police. Norris was intimately close to this man each Mardis Gras before 1888 and after. Of course, he would remember this, especially when he saw his knives and heard Dr. T say all night walkers should be disemboweled. It was significant enough for him to approach the chief of police! He even said he tried to avoid Tumblety, but Tumblety did indeed hound a young man who he favored.

This material deserves to be ripped apart by everyone (including people who hate my guts) and I promise it will come out. I just can't do it now.

Ripper peer review is awesome.

Sincerely,

Mike

Will this stuff be in the next book, Mike?

[mklhawley]

Yes, and actually, I had so much before the St. Louis stuff, I had already planned on writing it. I'm sending one Down Under!

Mike

[GUT]

Yes, and actually, I had so much before the St. Louis stuff, I had already planned on writing it. I'm sending one Down Under!

Mike

Great.

You have found some great stuff, on one crazy bloke. Just hope there isn't a photo of that sidekick of yours a darn ugly fellow if you ask me.

[Ally]

[QUOTE=mklhawley;415056]

Hi all,
more than this, but it's not just Norris' deposition. Yes, it absolutely corroborates Tumblety as a misogynist, especially when you take into account the testimony of Frank Widner, the lawyer Riordan loved, Simpson, Judge Papin, etc. Their testimony was quite damning.

I don't dispute Tumblety was a misogynist. That doesn't make him Jack the Ripper. There is a huge difference between a man who hides his face when a woman comes in the room (my there's a guy with guts) and a guy who actually kills people.

\

Of course, he would remember this, especially when he saw his knives and heard Dr. T say all night walkers should be disemboweled. It was significant enough for him to approach the chief of police! He even said he tried to avoid Tumblety, but Tumblety did indeed hound a young man who he favored.

I don't dispute Tumblety had knives. That doesn't make him Jack the Ripper. I have knives. Several dozen people I know have knives. Tumblety saying he thought all prostitutes should be disemboweled is again, evidence of literally nothing. He was in London during the murders. He was well aware of the crimes. Being a misogynist it was probably fairly natural for him to say that he thought all prostitutes should be disemboweled as it probably seemed fitting to him. That doesn't make him Jack the Ripper. It makes him a butthead. Not Jack the Ripper. Hounding a young man he favored doesn't make him Jack the Ripper. Even the young man doesn't claim he did anything forceful or actually violent against him (other than that ludicrous bit of theater to explain how he saw the penis, which I find absurd. Like what Tumblety had to unzip Norris pants and stroke his naked penis for several minutes before it dawned on Norris what was going on? Give me a break.)

[Steadmund Brand]

Great.

You have found some great stuff, on one crazy bloke. Just hope there isn't a photo of that sidekick of yours a darn ugly fellow if you ask me.

Oh how right you are.....scary thing is....you should see his Aussie Twin...woof now that is scary looking ��

Steadmund Brand

[GUT]

Oh how right you are.....scary thing is....you should see his Aussie Twin...woof now that is scary looking ��

Steadmund Brand

[Robert]

Re the rambling nature of Norris's testimony : is it possible that some of it was in answer to questions which aren't indicated in the text?

[Steadmund Brand]

Re the rambling nature of Norris's testimony : is it possible that some of it was in answer to questions which aren't indicated in the text?

That is exactly what I first thought when we discovered this....I even asked Mike, but after reading more of these documents it appears he is just rambling....i still think it's"possible" the questions are removed but not likely....the conclusion I came to is it was just a very nervous Norris, especially since his "homosexual" life was being exposed (however I believe he was more a, for lack of a better term, "hustler" who engaged in homosexual acts..but was heterosexual)....he always justifies his "relationship" by talking about all the money Tumblety spent on him....as if that shows he wasn't in it for "companionship"
again these are just my thoughts....as we will never know for sure....

Steadmund Brand

[jmenges]

I don't think there are any questions missing. It's the textbook definition of "spilling the beans". Immediately after giving the dates of the first incidents with Tumblety the questioning attorney says "Go on". There is an objection, which is over ruled, and the judge says "Q: Go on, and narrate what you were saying just now?" So neither the attorney for the contesting family members nor the judge seemed to mind his manner of answering this first question. As the deposition moves along it does fall into a chronological pattern of his encounters with Tumblety and there are more questions posed to help keep Norris on track, and Norris appears to calm down. So I agree with Brian that the way the first answer is long and rambling with no interruption from attorneys can be put down to Norris' nerves, and possibly the defense counsel caught off guard.

JM

[Robert]

Thanks Stead.

[Robert]

Thanks JM.

[Abby Normal]

Micro-penis.

Learned a new word today

[mklhawley]

[QUOTE=Ally;415070]

I don't dispute Tumblety was a misogynist. That doesn't make him Jack the Ripper.

I don't dispute Tumblety had knives. That doesn't make him Jack the Ripper.

I don't dispute Anderson and Swanson believed a polish Jew was the killer. That doesn't make him Jack the Ripper.

I don't dispute Mac believed it was Druitt. That doesn't make him Jack the Ripper.

I don't dispute Abberline... That doesn't make him Jack the Ripper.

I don't dispute Littlechild... That doesn't make him Jack the Ripper.

I don't dispute the suspects who saw the victims with suspicious characters. That doesn't make them Jack the Ripper.

I think I agree with you Ally.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Steadmund Brand]

Micro-penis.

Learned a new word today

Yea...sounds like a slam, or mock...but that is the term used for that (possibly what Tumblety had) condition.
.Ally seems convinced that is what it is...and that was my take on it as well...in fact when we first discovered it I said....sounds more like mico penis than hermaphrodite.....but the term hermaphrodite comes up more than once...so who knows....but the description fits (no pun intended) the condition of mico penis

Steadmund Brand