Tumblety: The Hidden Truth

[Sam Flynn]

Ooh in that case I'm ordering a shot of Cognac Croizet Cuvée Leonie 1858.

(yes I googled to find out the world's most expensive shot.)

I've got a few cases of that I can sell you. I've stored it in old lemonade bottles, but it's genuine enough

[Ally]

LOL... considering pretty much all alcohol tastes like old moldy lemonade to me, you could probably get away with your ruse.

[robhouse]

I agree with Ally's take on this: the "disembowelment" statement was made after the murders. There is really no other way to interpret this.

RH

[Emily Harless]

Searching for Documents

So, I'm very interested in studying the medical and social treatment of so called "hermaphrodites" from the Elizabethan and Victorian periods (I've been doing it for a couple of years now), and I'd really like to get a copy of those pages. Especially Norris's deposition. I'm hoping to do some research and write a paper on it, but without the primary source, it's kind of difficult to work on.
Any advice?
Btw, awesome segment. Really loved this episode.

[jmenges]

Hi Emily. I don't think you've accumulated enough posts to send or receive private messages here yet so feel free to email me:

rippercastpodcast at gmail dot com.

Maybe you can give me more of an idea of what you might like to find in the new Tumblety documents and I can see if I can help you out. As you've heard on the show, there were multiple people (attorneys, nurses, undertakers, and Norris) that commented on his "hermaphroditic" disorder.

Thanks for listening to the podcast,

Jonathan

[Steadmund Brand]

Hello Emily... sounds like fascinating research you are doing..as one of the people who broke this revelation about Tumblety I want to stress that I in NO WAY think that the condition adds anything to him being a suspect... to me, it was just a side note....and one I knew people would find interesting.. please let us know more about your study .

Steadmund Brand

[Emily Harless]

Hello Emily... sounds like fascinating research you are doing..as one of the people who broke this revelation about Tumblety I want to stress that I in NO WAY think that the condition adds anything to him being a suspect... to me, it was just a side note....and one I knew people would find interesting.. please let us know more about your study .

Steadmund Brand

I totally agree that it doesn't add much (if anything) to his status as a suspect. I find his behavior very interesting, and based on what I already know about the experience of hermaphrodites during the Elizabethan and Victorian periods, it seems that Tumblety is a great example of what the mistreatment of intersexed individuals can do to their psychological health. Tumblety brings together two things I'm really enthusiastic about: the Ripper case and the history of "hermaphrodites".

[mklhawley]

Hi all,

I actually have more information than what was presented on Rippercast. Keep in mind, the original plan was to approach Rippercast later, but we were forced to show some of our cards prematurely. The dramatic stuff is out, though. My point: Be careful on concluding anything. For example, the answer to when Tumblety's disemboweled comment was made has been confirmed, but this info will come out later. Sorry Rob, although in your mind there is no other way...

Howard and Nina Brown - Great job, and yes, you have discovered the correct Richard Norris. There is even more. I did find some of the articles Nina found, but I will be giving you and Nina the credit. And yes, I am also surprised researchers never discovered Tumbley's intersex condition, especially when the police in likely multiple cities knew.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Steadmund Brand]

Yeah.....I forgot to mention the outstanding job Howard and Nina did.....you two are fast!!!!....
I am also surprised that the intersexed news never saw the light of day.....to be honest, when Mike told me the night he read it I didn't believe it...I even said..."that's not possible....with all the research done how could that have flown under the radar" but then I saw the documents myself....and as Mike said, there is a lot more, but we just weren't ready when we realized we had to do the Rippercast....I really want to thank Jonathan and Ally again....we knew we wanted Rippercast to be first, but damn, they really stepped up in our hour of need.....I also want to thank everyone who has taken the time to listen, and especially those who weighed in on it...even those who disagree with me ��....it is for all of you we are doing this work for...and I look forward to (as I know Mike does) bringing more info out when it's ready, been checked, and double checked, as it's the truth I care about...not some "case closed" stuff...just the historical evidence on this person who is after all a fascinating character....in and out of the "Ripper" discussion.

Steadmund Brand

[GUT]

Can't wait for the next instalment.

No secret I find two of the most fascinating suspects highly unlikely to be Jack. Tumblety and Deeming both belong in the total Bastards catagory.

But you never know Mike may eventually convert me, he has certainly done some great work.

I long ago, before I even found casebook was persuaded he was a contemporary police suspect and have always believed they deserve the most investigation.

[Pcdunn]

Wow, I stay away from Casebook for a few days, and return to find such an interesting thread! Have not heard the podcast yet, but with two weeks of vacation ahead of me, I will certainly try to listen to it.
Congratulations on the new research, all!

[GUT]

Wow, I stay away from Casebook for a few days, and return to find such an interesting thread! Have not heard the podcast yet, but with two weeks of vacation ahead of me, I will certainly try to listen to it.
Congratulations on the new research, all!

Yep they've done some great work.

[GUT]

I've now listened to it.

Interesting to say the least.

I've been asked by a few people to give some opinions (and that is all they can ever be) on the evidence. I will endeavour to do so over a few posts. In particular the admissibility of the material, the weight that may attach to it, and the prospects of obtaining a conviction.

[GUT]

Conviction

Always start with the easy one.

In my opinion there would be little chance of obtaining a conviction, but remember what happened with O.J. No conviction when the standard is "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" but when sued for wrongful death "Balance of Probabilities" he lost big time.

There is, n my opinion a possibility that the same could happen with F.T.

Personally on what I've seen and heard to date I would even find for him on the Civil Standard, but by goodness it'd be a close thing and mind you there may be more I'm not familiar with or not yet uncovered.

I've long been persuaded that he was one of the contemporary suspects, with no sign that he was cleared at the time, and to me that makes him a person who must be investigated and a much better prospect than any of the modern accused. We have no idea what material has been lost and what additional evidence may have exsisted in the past.

[GUT]

Micro Penis

In relation to F.T. I believe that this is a better term than hermaphrodite as the evidence, as I understand it is nothing more than that he had a small penis.

How would that impact on a person who if not suffering from narcissism or a narcissistic disorder, was clearly a major egomaniac? Now I'm not the expert here, but I suspect that expert evid nice would support the proposition that it could contribute to an aversion to women.