George Hutchinson Revisited

[etenguy]

Ah, tone it down you mean, yes of course.

Like only give the suspect a dark moustache turned up at the ends, a long dark coat trimmed with astrachan, a white collar and horseshoe tie pin, dark spats with light buttons, a waistcoat with gold watch chain with a big red seal, brown kid gloves & a red handkerchief.

Right, keep it subtle, not too ostentatious.

I don't recall any article in the weekend papers offering a description along those lines.

Hi Wickerman

No, this is not what I meant - I was specifically referring to the sixpence and not changing it to another amount.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman

No, this is not what I meant - I was specifically referring to the sixpence and not changing it to another amount.

No, I was just having fun. Lighten the mood sort of thing.

Your point did make me reflect back on previous theories, and how creative some arguments were, yet their proposals only addressed one or two points in his story, not his whole story.

One suggestion was that the 2:00 Hutchinson used he took from a newspaper story where a doss house resident claimed to have met Kelly at 2:00 one morning and gave her money. And again a story about late Thursday night Kelly was said to have met a well-dressed man who she took to her room.
Small incidents like this, even the choice of words Abby referred to in one phrase appeared similar to a phrase in Hutchinson's statement.
I actually asked the poster to explain where she saw the ostentatious appearance of the suspect, which she couldn't answer.

Another poster chipped in with "the well-dressed suspect was a common theme in the newspapers at the time, thats why he used it".

Ok, but thee big detail for these well-dressed suspects was the proverbial 'black bag', they all carried that devilish black bag.
Astrachan did'nt have one, how do you explain that?
Which they couldn't answer.
In my view, obviously, if you invent a typical character based on newspaper stories where the suspect is carrying that black bag, why invent a suspect who didn't have one?

Another poster then suggested a little-known theory at the time, that Hutchinson obtain those unique details of Astrachan's appearance from a tailor's dummy.
He actually choose to implicate a tailor's dummy!
What a laugh, this time the theory was that Hutchinson had seen a tailor's dummy in a shop window and decided that look would make a devilish looking suspect.
(Are you begining to see the craziness here?).
I guess we are supposed to believe no beat constable ever passed this shop, no detective ever walked this street and saw this same dummy that sported the very same details given by Hutchinson.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman

This is Hutchinson trying to get a good look at his face, so I assume he didn't see his face clearly earlier - this was a deliberate act to get a look and from this then is where I assume the description of Astrakhan man's face derived. This act must have been observed by Astrakhan man and so hence my suggestion that Hutchinson was inviting an angry response by so obviously staring at his face. If someone did that to me in the street - daytime or nighttime, I would certainly react. Especially so since the man seems to be deliberately hiding his face. So I wondered if actually Hutchinson was a little more subtle than he describes and hence did not get quite the good look at the man's face he claims.

Funny you should mention this. I initially took that action (the deliberate move to look at his face) as more confrontational. Hutch might have had an aggressive side to him than what comes across in his statement.
If that happened to me, someone deliberately doing what he did, I would feel he was challenging me. It's like saying "I'm gonna remember you!" right to his face, a bit confrontational.

[etenguy]

No, I was just having fun. Lighten the mood sort of thing.

Your point did make me reflect back on previous theories, and how creative some arguments were, yet their proposals only addressed one or two points in his story, not his whole story.

One suggestion was that the 2:00 Hutchinson used he took from a newspaper story where a doss house resident claimed to have met Kelly at 2:00 one morning and gave her money. And again a story about late Thursday night Kelly was said to have met a well-dressed man who she took to her room.
Small incidents like this, even the choice of words Abby referred to in one phrase appeared similar to a phrase in Hutchinson's statement.
I actually asked the poster to explain where she saw the ostentatious appearance of the suspect, which she couldn't answer.

Another poster chipped in with "the well-dressed suspect was a common theme in the newspapers at the time, thats why he used it".

Ok, but thee big detail for these well-dressed suspects was the proverbial 'black bag', they all carried that devilish black bag.
Astrachan did'nt have one, how do you explain that?
Which they couldn't answer.
In my view, obviously, if you invent a typical character based on newspaper stories where the suspect is carrying that black bag, why invent a suspect who didn't have one?

Another poster then suggested a little-known theory at the time, that Hutchinson obtain those unique details of Astrachan's appearance from a tailor's dummy.
He actually choose to implicate a tailor's dummy!
What a laugh, this time the theory was that Hutchinson had seen a tailor's dummy in a shop window and decided that look would make a devilish looking suspect.
(Are you begining to see the craziness here?).
I guess we are supposed to believe no beat constable ever passed this shop, no detective ever walked this street and saw this same dummy that sported the very same details given by Hutchinson.

Hi Wickerman

I don't know from where Hutchinson picked up his description of the man if his story was manufactured. It has some characteristics common to other descriptions but goes further. I never thought about a shop dummy - you may have a point there. I did find a mustached shop mannequin in a Victorian photograph dressed exactly as Hutchinson described. See link ireallyamnotbeingserious.com

[Abby Normal]

Hi Wickerman

I don't know from where Hutchinson picked up his description of the man if his story was manufactured. It has some characteristics common to other descriptions but goes further. I never thought about a shop dummy - you may have a point there. I did find a mustached shop mannequin in a Victorian photograph dressed exactly as Hutchinson described. See link ireallyamnotbeingserious.com

a rich jewish horse owner who he was jealous of and didnt like.

[caz]

Hi Caz

I have to agree with your substantive point, that Hutchinson would have been able to see Kelly and Astrakhan man based on what he says in his statement. I tend to think it more likely that Hutchinson is telling his truth rather than has manufactured the story. But I would be less bullish in concluding that since the geography allows for the story to be true that it necessarily is.

Hutchinson, though, is not a straight-forward witness - the behaviour he describes is a little odd, as is his reason for being interested in the man with with Kelly. He can provide such a detailed description of the man because he says ne positioned himself by a lamp and then stooped and looked up at the man's face. If this did happen, then I think he was inviting a violent reaction from the man but perhaps he was exaggerating what actually happened - which might mean we need to take some of the detail of his description with some caution.

Hi etenguy,

Perhaps Hutch was the sort of tough geezer who knew how to look after himself, and had no qualms about inviting a violent reaction from this Del Boy character. Besides, if the man had appeared the type to kick off at the least provocation, Hutch might have been more concerned for Kelly's safety when she took him back to her place. Hutch said he was given no reason to suspect the man of wanting to harm Kelly, and if this was the ripper he'd have wanted to give the impression that he was Mr Charming - until the charm was wound up. "What? This one's desperate for rent money and inviting me back to her room? At this time of night? With my reputation? Bingo!"

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Funny you should mention this. I initially took that action (the deliberate move to look at his face) as more confrontational. Hutch might have had an aggressive side to him than what comes across in his statement.
If that happened to me, someone deliberately doing what he did, I would feel he was challenging me. It's like saying "I'm gonna remember you!" right to his face, a bit confrontational.

Yes, my thoughts too, Jon. If Hutch was a little resentful that Kelly was being buttered up by someone who had the money to do it, I could see him being rather intimidating when looking so closely at the man. If Del Boy wanted to murder Kelly in her bed, or just sleep with her, he evidently didn't fancy getting involved in an argument or even a fist fight with Hutch, and risk losing his golden opportunity with the woman. Better to keep his head down and be the passive one.

Love,

Caz
X

[Wickerman]

And naturally, if he was watching and waiting for them to come into view, he'd have picked the best vantage point to stand.

I intended to mention this before but got sidetracked.
The blue spot outside No.74 Commercial (Queens Head), was actually where the lamp was. It was a street lamp, not a wall lamp.



The spot itself is a water Hydrant, but hydrants were located at the foot of some street lamps.

[Wickerman]

Yes, my thoughts too, Jon. If Hutch was a little resentful that Kelly was being buttered up by someone who had the money to do it, I could see him being rather intimidating when looking so closely at the man. If Del Boy wanted to murder Kelly in her bed, or just sleep with her, he evidently didn't fancy getting involved in an argument or even a fist fight with Hutch, and risk losing his golden opportunity with the woman. Better to keep his head down and be the passive one.

Love,

Caz
X

Could be Caz, it's just I very much doubt Astrachan was the Ripper.
Back on post 70 I listed all the known points that have an impact on this issue, and Kelly was seen out on the street after her meeting with him.
So, I favour that Astrachan was not interested in confronting Hutch, out of self preservation.

[richardnunweek]

Hi
Surely Mr A was fearless , no one in their right senses , would accompany a woman of the night back to her room , where they could have been robbed /attacked, especially a local , who would have known about Dorset streets reputation.
Regards Richard,

[Wickerman]

Hi
Surely Mr A was fearless , no one in their right senses , would accompany a woman of the night back to her room , where they could have been robbed /attacked, especially a local , who would have known about Dorset streets reputation.
Regards Richard,

If you're assuming Astrachan was the Ripper, what did he have to fear with a weapon like he had.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
If he was the Ripper,?? if he was not, he was obviously familiar with Millers court. and if he was in any risk of being accosted so either a brazen , ruthless ,killer, or someone who Kelly knew, and was of no harm to her.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

Hi,
If he was the Ripper,?? if he was not, he was obviously familiar with Millers court. and if he was in any risk of being accosted so either a brazen , ruthless ,killer, or someone who Kelly knew, and was of no harm to her.
Regards Richard.

Astrachan?, what did he do that makes you think he was familiar with Millers Court?

Often serial killers are cowards when it comes to being challenged by another male.
Hutch told us he went up the court and stood outside Mary's room, but could neither hear or see anything.
Might that suggest Astrachan was concerned, he heard footsteps outside and wondered if that guy who stared him down, then stood opposite watching them, was loitering outside to do him harm?
All that was on his mind was getting out as soon as possible, as soon as Hutch left.

[rjpalmer]

Astrachan?, what did he do that makes you think he was familiar with Millers Court?

You don't see any signs of familiarity between Kelly and Mr. A, as described by Hutchinson?

One can't be certain, and people interpret things differently, but I rather suspect that this wasn't the first time they laid eyes on each other.

[Wickerman]

You don't see any signs of familiarity between Kelly and Mr. A, as described by Hutchinson?

One can't be certain, and people interpret things differently, but I rather suspect that this wasn't the first time they laid eyes on each other.

You could be right, I was just genuinely asking.
We might imagine most of Kelly's custom was repeat, but to actually point this one out as a repeat customer, I wondered what in particular made Richard say that.