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  • Originally posted by Craig H View Post

    Attached is screenshot.

    British Newspapers Archive doesn't have copies of Police Gazette from 1888.

    However, www.lastchancetoread.com does.

    You can purchase the copy for 2 pound.

    The screenshot shows the text from the Police Gazette of 23 November 1888 (Volume 5, issue 512). The text is :


    "For embezzling 45 pound gold & silver, JOSEPH BAMFORD, age 35, height about 5 ft. 6 in., complexion pale, hair and moustache light brown, eyes ( sore and no eyelashes) grey, thin features, large sharp nose ; dress, dark overcoat, dark cloth suit, black felt hat. Warrant issued. Information to Supt. Naylor, Oakmere, Northwich. WANTED"

    This seems similar to description of man described by Gardner & Best.

    Not sure when the crime occurred in Oakmere, as this is close to time of Ripper murders.

    Craig


    Thankyou Craig, yes I immediately went to the BNA, but no joy. So my next question was going to be - where did you access this, so thanks for anticipating my thoughts.
    The shot is a little too small, but I did look for a Joseph Bamford in the BNA, a local paper to Northwich may have clarified what his crime was, but couldn't find anything.
    Local libraries sometimes carry archived local newspapers, I might contact Northwich municipality to see if they have an archive.
    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

      Thats not a lot of business for a nights work, of course I don't believe she was around after say 3:30, so Maxwell & M.Lewis are just mistaken. But, one hour is possibly the most time Kelly would give to a client she brings to her room.

      Kelly was reported with a well-dressed gent in the Britannia somewhere around 10-11 pm Thursday night.
      Then with Blotchy from what 11:45 - 1:00am?
      Next is Astrachan from 2:00-3:00ish, Britannia-man from a little after 3:00ish until she is killed.

      She was doing fine up to that point.
      thanks wick
      is brittania man the same as the bethnal green botherer? In your opinion is the BGB someone you think Kelly also ran into and or her possible killer?
      is it possible that Aman, the BGB and or brittania man could all be the same man or some combination thereof???

      as you know im very intrigued by the BGB.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

        thanks wick
        is brittania man the same as the bethnal green botherer? In your opinion is the BGB someone you think Kelly also ran into and or her possible killer?
        is it possible that Aman, the BGB and or brittania man could all be the same man or some combination thereof???

        as you know im very intrigued by the BGB.
        Hi Abby.

        BGB is the Britannia-man, on a different night, in a different location, but the same person.

        A-man (Astrachan) is someone else entirely.
        I rely on Sarah Lewis for that distinction. She passed the Britannia-man before she walked down Dorset street. Yet she saw a man & woman (A-man & Kelly?) walk up Millers Court ahead of her, while Hutch stood opposite.
        So, yes A-man is not Britannia-man.
        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

          Thankyou Craig, yes I immediately went to the BNA, but no joy. So my next question was going to be - where did you access this, so thanks for anticipating my thoughts.
          The shot is a little too small, but I did look for a Joseph Bamford in the BNA, a local paper to Northwich may have clarified what his crime was, but couldn't find anything.
          Local libraries sometimes carry archived local newspapers, I might contact Northwich municipality to see if they have an archive.
          I took a poke.

          Around the same time, there was a Joseph Bamford wanted for deserting his family, but he's listed as being from Shawclough, Rochdale, which is about 35 miles from Northwich, so it's unclear if it's the same man.

          The reward for his whereabouts was listed in the Poor Law Unions' Gazette, 8 December 1888, under Rochdale Union. I think "Well Brow" is Well Brow Terrace, which was a street in Shawclough.

          Obviously, it may not be related, but there was a warrant, presumably issued in November 1888.

          Click image for larger version

Name:	bamford.JPG
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Size:	31.3 KB
ID:	760059

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

            Hi Abby.

            BGB is the Britannia-man, on a different night, in a different location, but the same person.

            A-man (Astrachan) is someone else entirely.
            I rely on Sarah Lewis for that distinction. She passed the Britannia-man before she walked down Dorset street. Yet she saw a man & woman (A-man & Kelly?) walk up Millers Court ahead of her, while Hutch stood opposite.
            So, yes A-man is not Britannia-man.
            Thanks wick
            So let me get this straight. Sarah lewis and friend are freightened by the brittania man/BGB on the previous wed. (Im just going to call him the BGB for simplicity)She sees him again the night kelly is murdered with another woman as she makes her way to the keylers. then in your opinion after her jaunt with Aman, Kelly goes back out where she meets up with the BGB and is seen by kennedy at the brittania. they go back to her place and she is murdered by the BGB.

            Is that it?

            also, why do you think the BGB and the brittania man are the same?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

              Thanks wick
              So let me get this straight. Sarah lewis and friend are freightened by the brittania man/BGB on the previous wed. (Im just going to call him the BGB for simplicity)She sees him again the night kelly is murdered with another woman as she makes her way to the keylers. then in your opinion after her jaunt with Aman, Kelly goes back out where she meets up with the BGB and is seen by kennedy at the brittania. they go back to her place and she is murdered by the BGB.

              Is that it?
              Yes.

              also, why do you think the BGB and the brittania man are the same?
              Lewis & Kennedy recognised him on Friday morning as the man who accosted them the previous Wednesday.

              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                Yes.



                Lewis & Kennedy recognised him on Friday morning as the man who accosted them the previous Wednesday.
                ok thanks!
                More questions:

                lewis and kennedy are sisters then? or freinds?
                also, how does lewis see aman and kelly go into the court together, when they are already in her place, after followed by hutch and hes taken up his vigil watching? Is she following all of them a little behind?
                whats your whole lewis, kennedy, keylers, hutch, kelly and aman series of events/theory again?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                  I took a poke.

                  Around the same time, there was a Joseph Bamford wanted for deserting his family, but he's listed as being from Shawclough, Rochdale, which is about 35 miles from Northwich, so it's unclear if it's the same man.

                  The reward for his whereabouts was listed in the Poor Law Unions' Gazette, 8 December 1888, under Rochdale Union. I think "Well Brow" is Well Brow Terrace, which was a street in Shawclough.

                  Obviously, it may not be related, but there was a warrant, presumably issued in November 1888.

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	bamford.JPG
Views:	173
Size:	31.3 KB
ID:	760059
                  The image has Joseph Bamford's occupation as an "operative". Any one know what that means ? Is that like a "machine operator"
                  Ancestry.com has a Joseph Bamford bn 1853 in Rochdale, Lancashire living with his grandfather in 1861 Census.
                  in 1881 Census, he is a widower with 7 year old son Arthur living in Newton, Lancashire. His job is a "fustian cutter" which I understand is cutting threads / textiles.
                  I can't find him in 1891 census.
                  Wonder if this is him ?
                  Craig

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                    ok thanks!
                    More questions:

                    lewis and kennedy are sisters then? or freinds?
                    They were friends, it's another one of those terms that has mostly died out.
                    This is from a 19th century dictionary.."a close female friend".




                    also, how does lewis see aman and kelly go into the court together,...
                    Lewis said she saw a man & woman go up the court/passage, Lewis then noticed Hutch standing opposite.

                    He was looking up the court as if he was waiting for some one. I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court.

                    Is she following all of them a little behind?
                    It would appear Lewis was walking towards Millers Court, the couple were ahead of her.

                    whats your whole lewis, kennedy, keylers, hutch, kelly and aman series of events/theory again?
                    It's all put together from what we read in the press & police reports.
                    You want it again?

                    Regards, Jon S.

                    Comment


                    • My understanding of the “Britannia-man theory”

                      STRIDE murder

                      Best and Gardner witness (11 p.m)

                      Elizabeth Stride was seen at 11 p.m (so 90 minutes before she died) with a man at the Bricklayers Arms pub by Best and Gardner who gave a detailed description of the couple.
                      They were surprised by how affectionate the man was “He was hugging her and kissing her, and as he seemed a respectably dressed man, we were rather astonished at the way he was going on with the woman, who was poorly dressed”
                      Best described the man as “about 5ft. 5in. in height. He was well dressed in a black morning suit with a morning coat. He had rather weak eyes. I mean he had sore eyes without any eyelashes. I should know the man again amongst a hundred. He had a thick black moustache and no beard. He wore a black billycock hat, rather tall, and had on a collar. I don't know the colour of his tie. I said to the woman, "that's Leather Apron getting round you." The man was no foreigner; he was an Englishman right enough."
                      One of the unusual features was the comment about his “sore eyes without eyelashes”.

                      William Marshall witness (11.45 p.m)
                      Marshall saw Stride at 11.45 a.m with a man in a black cut-away coat and trousers, middle aged, 5 ft 6 in, decently dressed, a business man (a clerk), wearing a round cap with a peak.
                      He was kissing her. Marshall heard him say “you would say anything but your prayers”

                      PC Smith witness (12.30 p.m)
                      Smith saw the couple and described the man as 5 ft 7 in, dark clothes, cutaway coat, respectable experience, carrying a parcel wrapped in newspaper (18 inch long, 6 in wide)

                      One theory is this was the same man who had been with Stride since 11 p.m. It was therefore someone she knew or was comfortable with.

                      KELLY MURDER

                      Lawende witness
                      Height 5’ 7-9. Fair complexion. Small fair moustache. Red necktie. Rough/shabby. Wearing a loose pepper and salt jacket and grey cloth cap.

                      Harry Bowyer witness (night before she dired)
                      Saw a man talking with Mary Kelly in Millers Court the night before she was murdered,. He was 27 – 28 years old, had a dark moustache and very peculiar eyes. His appearance was rather smart and attention was drawn to him by showing very white cuffs and a rather long white collar, the ends of which came down in front over a black coat.

                      Sarah Lewis & Mrs Kennedy (the night before Kelly died)
                      Were standing outside the Britannia and approached by a man. They noticed the unnatural glare of the man's eyes.

                      THE EYES
                      My understanding of the theory is the peculiar eyes are due to the man having Madarosis. One of the causes is syphilis.
                      This could be a potential motive for attacking prostitutes as he believed they gave him syphilis ?

                      Craig


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Craig H View Post

                        The image has Joseph Bamford's occupation as an "operative". Any one know what that means ? Is that like a "machine operator"
                        Ancestry.com has a Joseph Bamford bn 1853 in Rochdale, Lancashire living with his grandfather in 1861 Census.
                        in 1881 Census, he is a widower with 7 year old son Arthur living in Newton, Lancashire. His job is a "fustian cutter" which I understand is cutting threads / textiles.
                        I can't find him in 1891 census.
                        Wonder if this is him ?
                        Craig
                        This is from a 19th century Websters...

                        Regards, Jon S.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Craig H View Post
                          ...

                          Sarah Lewis & Mrs Kennedy (the night before Kelly died)
                          Were standing outside the Britannia and approached by a man. They noticed the unnatural glare of the man's eyes.
                          It might be worthwhile mentioning that Lewis came past the Britannia about or before 2:30 am and saw a man & woman, while Kennedy came past a half-hour later, about 3:00 am., and saw Kelly with a man & woman.

                          Lewis saw Hutch standing in Dorset St., and Kelly with a man walking ahead of her, then enter Millers Court.

                          Kennedy did not see Hutch, he had gone by 3:00 am.

                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                            They were friends, it's another one of those terms that has mostly died out.
                            This is from a 19th century dictionary.."a close female friend".






                            Lewis said she saw a man & woman go up the court/passage, Lewis then noticed Hutch standing opposite.

                            He was looking up the court as if he was waiting for some one. I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court.



                            It would appear Lewis was walking towards Millers Court, the couple were ahead of her.



                            It's all put together from what we read in the press & police reports.
                            You want it again?
                            thanks wick. no i got it. the bethnal green botherer could be the ripper imho. he reminds me of marshalls man a bit too

                            Comment



                            • 'A witness doesn't have to prove anything',and'What has Romford to do with a murder investigation'.You serious about those claims Jon?The whole chain of evidence that Hutchinson offers,is based on his going to Romford,returning in the early hours of the Friday morning,and witnessing a meeting between Kelly and a male person.
                              Hutchinson had to prove something to Aberline for the later to form an opinion .Taking into account that Hutchinson arrived at the police station at 6pm or sometime after,and Aberline sometime after that,it would have been late in the evening before the interview finished,so I doubt very much that Aberline would have waited hours before writing his(Aberline) report.So where was the time to organise and investigate,and why only state an opinion, if elements of Hutchinson's claim had been proven.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                                It might be worthwhile mentioning that Lewis came past the Britannia about or before 2:30 am and saw a man & woman, while Kennedy came past a half-hour later, about 3:00 am., and saw Kelly with a man & woman.

                                Lewis saw Hutch standing in Dorset St., and Kelly with a man walking ahead of her, then enter Millers Court.

                                Kennedy did not see Hutch, he had gone by 3:00 am.
                                The Evening Times on 10 November :
                                "On Thursday night Gallagher and his wife retired to rest at a fairly early hour. Their married daughter, a woman named Mrs. Kennedy, came home, however, at a late hour. Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before".

                                "Mrs. Kennedy is confident that the man whom she noticed speaking to the woman Kelly at three o'clock on Friday morning is identical with the person who accosted her on the previous Wednesday"

                                This suggests Kelly was talking to the Britannia-man (the one with unusual eyes) at 3 a.m. He may have been the person she took back to her room, and was the murdered ?
                                Craig

                                Comment

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