George Hutchinson Revisited

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby.

BGB is the Britannia-man, on a different night, in a different location, but the same person.

A-man (Astrachan) is someone else entirely.
I rely on Sarah Lewis for that distinction. She passed the Britannia-man before she walked down Dorset street. Yet she saw a man & woman (A-man & Kelly?) walk up Millers Court ahead of her, while Hutch stood opposite.
So, yes A-man is not Britannia-man.

Thanks wick
So let me get this straight. Sarah lewis and friend are freightened by the brittania man/BGB on the previous wed. (Im just going to call him the BGB for simplicity)She sees him again the night kelly is murdered with another woman as she makes her way to the keylers. then in your opinion after her jaunt with Aman, Kelly goes back out where she meets up with the BGB and is seen by kennedy at the brittania. they go back to her place and she is murdered by the BGB.

Is that it?

also, why do you think the BGB and the brittania man are the same?

[rjpalmer]

Thankyou Craig, yes I immediately went to the BNA, but no joy. So my next question was going to be - where did you access this, so thanks for anticipating my thoughts.
The shot is a little too small, but I did look for a Joseph Bamford in the BNA, a local paper to Northwich may have clarified what his crime was, but couldn't find anything.
Local libraries sometimes carry archived local newspapers, I might contact Northwich municipality to see if they have an archive.

I took a poke.

Around the same time, there was a Joseph Bamford wanted for deserting his family, but he's listed as being from Shawclough, Rochdale, which is about 35 miles from Northwich, so it's unclear if it's the same man.

The reward for his whereabouts was listed in the Poor Law Unions' Gazette, 8 December 1888, under Rochdale Union. I think "Well Brow" is Well Brow Terrace, which was a street in Shawclough.

Obviously, it may not be related, but there was a warrant, presumably issued in November 1888.

[Wickerman]

thanks wick
is brittania man the same as the bethnal green botherer? In your opinion is the BGB someone you think Kelly also ran into and or her possible killer?
is it possible that Aman, the BGB and or brittania man could all be the same man or some combination thereof???

as you know im very intrigued by the BGB.

Hi Abby.

BGB is the Britannia-man, on a different night, in a different location, but the same person.

A-man (Astrachan) is someone else entirely.
I rely on Sarah Lewis for that distinction. She passed the Britannia-man before she walked down Dorset street. Yet she saw a man & woman (A-man & Kelly?) walk up Millers Court ahead of her, while Hutch stood opposite.
So, yes A-man is not Britannia-man.

[Abby Normal]

Thats not a lot of business for a nights work, of course I don't believe she was around after say 3:30, so Maxwell & M.Lewis are just mistaken. But, one hour is possibly the most time Kelly would give to a client she brings to her room.

Kelly was reported with a well-dressed gent in the Britannia somewhere around 10-11 pm Thursday night.
Then with Blotchy from what 11:45 - 1:00am?
Next is Astrachan from 2:00-3:00ish, Britannia-man from a little after 3:00ish until she is killed.

She was doing fine up to that point.

thanks wick
is brittania man the same as the bethnal green botherer? In your opinion is the BGB someone you think Kelly also ran into and or her possible killer?
is it possible that Aman, the BGB and or brittania man could all be the same man or some combination thereof???

as you know im very intrigued by the BGB.

[Wickerman]

Attached is screenshot.

British Newspapers Archive doesn't have copies of Police Gazette from 1888.

However, www.lastchancetoread.com does.

You can purchase the copy for 2 pound.

The screenshot shows the text from the Police Gazette of 23 November 1888 (Volume 5, issue 512). The text is :

"For embezzling 45 pound gold & silver, JOSEPH BAMFORD, age 35, height about 5 ft. 6 in., complexion pale, hair and moustache light brown, eyes ( sore and no eyelashes) grey, thin features, large sharp nose ; dress, dark overcoat, dark cloth suit, black felt hat. Warrant issued. Information to Supt. Naylor, Oakmere, Northwich. WANTED"

This seems similar to description of man described by Gardner & Best.

Not sure when the crime occurred in Oakmere, as this is close to time of Ripper murders.

Craig

Thankyou Craig, yes I immediately went to the BNA, but no joy. So my next question was going to be - where did you access this, so thanks for anticipating my thoughts.
The shot is a little too small, but I did look for a Joseph Bamford in the BNA, a local paper to Northwich may have clarified what his crime was, but couldn't find anything.
Local libraries sometimes carry archived local newspapers, I might contact Northwich municipality to see if they have an archive.

[richardnunweek]

Lets be logical
According to Lottie [ court resident] Kelly was paranoid about going out alone, she liked the company of people she trusted,, she remarked to Mrs McCarthy the previous day , that she heard the killer was ripe in the area , yet we are supposed to believe that she allowed a well dressed man , complete with small parcel to proposition her.? and accompany her back to her room in the middle of the night.
I put it to you , that at the very least she knew this man, maybe not used to seeing him in smart attire, but she did not fear him,.
Of course if Hutch was lying he did not exist, But I believe his account .
Mary Kelly a woman paranoid , having had a nightmare she was being murdered , would she venture out alone in the middle of the night, and carry on playing out a scene where she allows someone dressed straight out of 'The Penny Dreadful' to accost her without reservations, I would say No.
Let me run another scenario by you,
What If Astrakhan met Hutchinson , and asked him did he know the woman known as Kelly from Millers court, He replied 'yes' I was supposed to meet her earlier, but got held up., could you accompany me to Dorset street Its not the kind of street where its safe to walk dressed in these clothes,
Hutch went up the court tapped the door,, and informed Kelly that a man was waiting for her in the street, that was supposed to meet her earlier,, she came out, and talked to the man , whilst Hutch stood nearby,.
We should remember that a few hours earlier she was seen wearing a jacket and bonnet. she was obviously out to impress, and she appeared to have returned home to dress down as Mrs Cox describes her wearing different clothing.
Did the man get held up, and she believed she had been let down.? making my scenario possible,
Regards Richard

[Craig H]

Thankyou for that Craigh, someone worth investigating.
Are you able to post a clip from the Gazette?

Attached is screenshot.

British Newspapers Archive doesn't have copies of Police Gazette from 1888.

However, www.lastchancetoread.com does.

You can purchase the copy for 2 pound.

The screenshot shows the text from the Police Gazette of 23 November 1888 (Volume 5, issue 512). The text is :

"For embezzling 45 pound gold & silver, JOSEPH BAMFORD, age 35, height about 5 ft. 6 in., complexion pale, hair and moustache light brown, eyes ( sore and no eyelashes) grey, thin features, large sharp nose ; dress, dark overcoat, dark cloth suit, black felt hat. Warrant issued. Information to Supt. Naylor, Oakmere, Northwich. WANTED"

This seems similar to description of man described by Gardner & Best.

Not sure when the crime occurred in Oakmere, as this is close to time of Ripper murders.

Craig

[Wickerman]

Well Jon,you above everyone else is constantly asking that claims be proven.

If you are referring to modern accusations against Hutchinson, yes of course some proof should be required.
Without proof, anyone can (and does) invent anything they choose to accuse him of without reasonable justification.

Now here you are defending Hutchinson without proof of anything he says,except his being outside Crossinghams.

Accusations require proof, Hutchinson is a witness he never did have to prove anything.
All Abberline would need is some indication he was present when & where he said he was. Sarah Lewis provided that. A simple pocket-book from the constable on duty Sunday morning would do likewise. I don't know if the Romford police station, or perhaps post office had telegraph, but it only takes minutes to send Romford a telegram to have a constable check with the people where ever Hutch said he was staying.
What on earth Romford has to do with a murder investigation is probably the more interesting question - you might be able to answer that one.

So a person walks from Manchester to London.What relationship is that.The question is not whether Hutchinson could walk from Romford to Whitechapel,but whether he did that particular night.

Others have claimed it was too far.

As to whether Aberline had investigated the story Hutchinson gave before giving an opinion of honesty,it might be noted that it was given soon after the interview with Hutchinson had terminated,in a report to Aberlines superiors.

How many hours later?
Points I listed would barely take two hours.
How long to send a cab to Great Pearl street to talk again with Sarah Lewis?
Abberline could easily have written the memo to his superiors before midnight.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

I've been reading some of your previous posts on Britannia-man, and agree he could be a worthwhile suspect.

I found this posting from Police Gazette (23 November, 1888) with an arrest warrant for a Joseph Bamford who has a similar description to Britannia-man :

"JOSEPH BAMFORD, age 35, height about 5 ft. 6 in., complexion pale, hair and moustache light brown, eyes ( sore and no eyelashes) grey, thin features, large sharp nose ; dress, dark overcoat, dark cloth suit, black felt hat. Warrant issued. Information to Supt. Nay lor, Oakmere, Northwich. WANTED"

Would be interesting to find out more about Joseph Bamford

Craig

Thankyou for that Craigh, someone worth investigating.
Are you able to post a clip from the Gazette?

[harry]

Well Jon,you above everyone else is constantly asking that claims be proven.Now here you are defending Hutchinson without proof of anything he says,except his being outside Crossinghams.So a person walks from Manchester to London.What relationship is that.The question is not whether Hutchinson could walk from Romford to Whitechapel,but whether he did that particular night.As to whether Aberline had investigated the story Hutchinson gave before giving an opinion of honesty,it might be noted that it was given soon after the interview with Hutchinson had terminated,in a report to Aberlines superiors.What was lacking in any investigation that might have been undertaken,was the absence of the two principal witnesses,Kelly and the companion,for there seems to be no one else involved,and no other person came forward except Lewis.

[Craig H]

Thats not a lot of business for a nights work, of course I don't believe she was around after say 3:30, so Maxwell & M.Lewis are just mistaken. But, one hour is possibly the most time Kelly would give to a client she brings to her room.

Kelly was reported with a well-dressed gent in the Britannia somewhere around 10-11 pm Thursday night.
Then with Blotchy from what 11:45 - 1:00am?
Next is Astrachan from 2:00-3:00ish, Britannia-man from a little after 3:00ish until she is killed.

She was doing fine up to that point.

Hi Jon

I've been reading some of your previous posts on Britannia-man, and agree he could be a worthwhile suspect.

I found this posting from Police Gazette (23 November, 1888) with an arrest warrant for a Joseph Bamford who has a similar description to Britannia-man :

"JOSEPH BAMFORD, age 35, height about 5 ft. 6 in., complexion pale, hair and moustache light brown, eyes ( sore and no eyelashes) grey, thin features, large sharp nose ; dress, dark overcoat, dark cloth suit, black felt hat. Warrant issued. Information to Supt. Nay lor, Oakmere, Northwich. WANTED"

Would be interesting to find out more about Joseph Bamford

Craig

[c.d.]

You must remember this
A kiss is just a kiss
A sigh is just a sigh
The fundamental things apply
As time goes by

c.d.

[Wickerman]

so if you beleive all the witnesses we have kelly seeing Barnett, blotchy (and doing more back in her room with him), Hutch, Aman (and doing more back in her room with him), then out again meeting wicks guy (who is he again? what are we calling him-Brittania man?) until what four? five? in the morning, then back up at (or still up)8:00am yacking from too much drink and then shortly out again to the pub with Maxwells man (and presumably back to her room for more) and murdered by him?!?

what is she some kind of machine? is any of this realistic?

no, of course its not-and the later you go in the sequence the more likely people are lying or mistaken.

Thats not a lot of business for a nights work, of course I don't believe she was around after say 3:30, so Maxwell & M.Lewis are just mistaken. But, one hour is possibly the most time Kelly would give to a client she brings to her room.

Kelly was reported with a well-dressed gent in the Britannia somewhere around 10-11 pm Thursday night.
Then with Blotchy from what 11:45 - 1:00am?
Next is Astrachan from 2:00-3:00ish, Britannia-man from a little after 3:00ish until she is killed.

She was doing fine up to that point.

[Wickerman]

You're quibbling, Wick. Was it on the cheek? Did she turn her head away? Or did she stretch her neck up to meet him?

We don't know, because Hutchinson wasn't explicit.

A kiss was exchanged at the entrance to the court, and thus I stick to my guns.

Sorry RJ, but if it says "he gave her a kiss", then that is what happened (we can leave aside 'truth' for the moment).
We must argue the case with the actual written word, not what we choose to replace it with.
Hutch didn't say 'Kelly kissed him', neither did he say 'They kissed each other', if sticking to the correct terminology is quibbling then, I quibble.

Hutchinson's command of English is quite satisfactory - Astrachan kissed Kelly, and yes, considering the strict social standards observed in Victorian England, I do expect he kissed her on the cheek.

I don't believe the scene Hutchinson is describing can be properly interpreted as a stereotypical meeting between an East End streetwalker and a client at 2.30 a.m. I think it shows familiarity.

The fact that she didn't immediately solicit him for six pence is a rather weak peg on which to hang your hat.

But different people interpret things differently. That's why we debate.

Indeed, though I didn't take you up on that specific issue, I wasn't sure how to respond - it seemed a stretch to me to be honest, that they were playing a game with each other?

The fact Kelly didn't get straight to the point with Astrachan strongly suggests, to me, that she didn't know him. Nor did she expect to be entertained/accosted by one of his class.

I still have not seen what ever it was that Richard meant.

[caz]

so if you beleive all the witnesses we have kelly seeing Barnett, blotchy (and doing more back in her room with him), Hutch, Aman (and doing more back in her room with him), then out again meeting wicks guy (who is he again? what are we calling him-Brittania man?) until what four? five? in the morning, then back up at (or still up)8:00am yacking from too much drink and then shortly out again to the pub with Maxwells man (and presumably back to her room for more) and murdered by him?!?

what is she some kind of machine? is any of this realistic?

no, of course its not-and the later you go in the sequence the more likely people are lying or mistaken.

Takes me back to my own twenties, Abby.

No, not remotely realistic.

Love,

Caz
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