George Hutchinson Revisited

[jerryd]

Why would Mary Jane Kelly, who boasted her own room and a more than generous line of credit from her slum landlord, John McCarthy, allegedly experience a sudden 2.00 am urge to venture onto Commercial Street to borrow sixpence?

Good question Simon.

She allegedly took a road trip not long before that to her old haunts in the Ratcliff Highway at 2 a.m. and took a bed with a "strange man" at Mrs. McCarthy's for 2s.

[Simon Wood]

Why would Mary Jane Kelly, who boasted her own room and a more than generous line of credit from her slum landlord, John McCarthy, allegedly experience a sudden 2.00 am urge to venture onto Commercial Street to borrow sixpence?

[rjpalmer]

In a nutshell, we have two meetings, the first between two people who knew each other, the second, between two people who didn't.

Hi Wick,

What you write makes perfectly good sense and could be the correct interpretation.

That said, something about the whole scene as described by Hutchinson has long struck me as almost as a put-on. I don't mean by Hutchinson, but by Kelly and Mr. A.

"She went away towards Thrawl Street, a man coming in the opposite direction to Kelly tapped her on the shoulder and said something to her. They both burst out laughing. I heard her say alright to him, and the man said you will be alright for what I have told you. He then placed his right hand around her shoulders."

Yes, he approached her, rather than she approached him, but it almost seems as if it was some sort of understood 'game.'

I once read in a book about the Victorian underworld, and it claimed that street prostitutes were sometimes known to work through a system of signaling. This applied more specifically to homosexual prostitutes which, for obvious reasons, lived a far more precarious life.

But, either way, soliciting was technically illegal, so, to stay within the letter of the law, the smartest bet would be for the male punter to approach the female, rather than to wait for her to solicit him.

This is merely a theory, and I certainly have no way of proving it, but could Kelly have deliberately walked past Mr. A--having nonetheless immediately recognized him--as a sort of agreed upon game, pretending a lack of interest? He then taps her on the shoulder--the agreed upon 'signal'--to alert her he was interested, and they both burst out laughing?

The fact that he whispered something to her--apparently something lewd--and they both immediately had a fit of hilarity might suggest it was all some sort of inside joke, and they weren't really strangers. The whole episode ends by him immediately throwing his arm around her shoulder--which certainly seems intimate.

I don't know. I could be wrong, but there seems to be an air of familiarity in the scene that make me see this accidental meeting as rather contrived.

Further, when they stop at the entrance to the court, they kiss.

This is an awkward scene. I am only going by what I've read and what I've heard, but my understanding is that most prostitutes do not kiss their clients. It's a line they do not cross, because they want it understood that this is sex for money and is not 'love' or a 'relationship.' There is to be no emotional attachment, and the punter needs to understand that.

Then again, if Mr. A is a 'special' client, and a well paying client, Kelly might bend the rules.

Of course, we have know way of knowing if this was one of Kelly's rules. Maybe the streetwalkers of the East End had no such qualms.

Anyway, on a lighter note, I remember back in High School when we used to meet a friend accidently in the street we would sometimes pretend to walk past and deliberately make our shoulders collide. We would then either pretend to fight or burst out laughing. If it was something along these lines, Hutchinson might have misinterpreted what he was seeing.

--For what it is worth.

[harry]

We do not have confirmation of even one meeting.Like the trip to Romford,the walking back,the supposed walking the streets of Whitechapel.We have only one claim these events happened,that of Hutchinson.It may have happened,it might appear believeable to some,but there is no other evidence that supports his claims.Except of being seen standing opposite Millers Court.

[Wickerman]

Here Richard/RJ, let me offer an example.

Apparently, Kelly & Hutch knew each other.
Kelly walks straight up to Hutch and addresses him directly, "Mr Hutchinson, can you lend me sixpence...."

Whereas, we are told after Kelly walked on towards Thrawl St., a man coming towards her tapped her on the shoulder, presumably to get her attention?
If Kelly had known Astrachan, as with Hutchinson, he wouldn't need to do that. Kelly, in desperate need of money would have addressed him directly, as she did with Hutch. But the way we read it, she appeared to seem to walk on passed as if she wouldn't expect custom from that class of person, he had to get her attention.

In a nutshell, we have two meetings, the first between two people who knew each other, the second, between two people who didn't.

[Wickerman]

You don't see any signs of familiarity between Kelly and Mr. A, as described by Hutchinson?

One can't be certain, and people interpret things differently, but I rather suspect that this wasn't the first time they laid eyes on each other.

You could be right, I was just genuinely asking.
We might imagine most of Kelly's custom was repeat, but to actually point this one out as a repeat customer, I wondered what in particular made Richard say that.

[rjpalmer]

Astrachan?, what did he do that makes you think he was familiar with Millers Court?

You don't see any signs of familiarity between Kelly and Mr. A, as described by Hutchinson?

One can't be certain, and people interpret things differently, but I rather suspect that this wasn't the first time they laid eyes on each other.

[Wickerman]

Hi,
If he was the Ripper,?? if he was not, he was obviously familiar with Millers court. and if he was in any risk of being accosted so either a brazen , ruthless ,killer, or someone who Kelly knew, and was of no harm to her.
Regards Richard.

Astrachan?, what did he do that makes you think he was familiar with Millers Court?

Often serial killers are cowards when it comes to being challenged by another male.
Hutch told us he went up the court and stood outside Mary's room, but could neither hear or see anything.
Might that suggest Astrachan was concerned, he heard footsteps outside and wondered if that guy who stared him down, then stood opposite watching them, was loitering outside to do him harm?
All that was on his mind was getting out as soon as possible, as soon as Hutch left.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
If he was the Ripper,?? if he was not, he was obviously familiar with Millers court. and if he was in any risk of being accosted so either a brazen , ruthless ,killer, or someone who Kelly knew, and was of no harm to her.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

Hi
Surely Mr A was fearless , no one in their right senses , would accompany a woman of the night back to her room , where they could have been robbed /attacked, especially a local , who would have known about Dorset streets reputation.
Regards Richard,

If you're assuming Astrachan was the Ripper, what did he have to fear with a weapon like he had.

[richardnunweek]

Hi
Surely Mr A was fearless , no one in their right senses , would accompany a woman of the night back to her room , where they could have been robbed /attacked, especially a local , who would have known about Dorset streets reputation.
Regards Richard,

[Wickerman]

Yes, my thoughts too, Jon. If Hutch was a little resentful that Kelly was being buttered up by someone who had the money to do it, I could see him being rather intimidating when looking so closely at the man. If Del Boy wanted to murder Kelly in her bed, or just sleep with her, he evidently didn't fancy getting involved in an argument or even a fist fight with Hutch, and risk losing his golden opportunity with the woman. Better to keep his head down and be the passive one.

Love,

Caz
X

Could be Caz, it's just I very much doubt Astrachan was the Ripper.
Back on post 70 I listed all the known points that have an impact on this issue, and Kelly was seen out on the street after her meeting with him.
So, I favour that Astrachan was not interested in confronting Hutch, out of self preservation.

[Wickerman]

And naturally, if he was watching and waiting for them to come into view, he'd have picked the best vantage point to stand.

I intended to mention this before but got sidetracked.
The blue spot outside No.74 Commercial (Queens Head), was actually where the lamp was. It was a street lamp, not a wall lamp.



The spot itself is a water Hydrant, but hydrants were located at the foot of some street lamps.

[caz]

Funny you should mention this. I initially took that action (the deliberate move to look at his face) as more confrontational. Hutch might have had an aggressive side to him than what comes across in his statement.
If that happened to me, someone deliberately doing what he did, I would feel he was challenging me. It's like saying "I'm gonna remember you!" right to his face, a bit confrontational.

Yes, my thoughts too, Jon. If Hutch was a little resentful that Kelly was being buttered up by someone who had the money to do it, I could see him being rather intimidating when looking so closely at the man. If Del Boy wanted to murder Kelly in her bed, or just sleep with her, he evidently didn't fancy getting involved in an argument or even a fist fight with Hutch, and risk losing his golden opportunity with the woman. Better to keep his head down and be the passive one.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Caz

I have to agree with your substantive point, that Hutchinson would have been able to see Kelly and Astrakhan man based on what he says in his statement. I tend to think it more likely that Hutchinson is telling his truth rather than has manufactured the story. But I would be less bullish in concluding that since the geography allows for the story to be true that it necessarily is.

Hutchinson, though, is not a straight-forward witness - the behaviour he describes is a little odd, as is his reason for being interested in the man with with Kelly. He can provide such a detailed description of the man because he says ne positioned himself by a lamp and then stooped and looked up at the man's face. If this did happen, then I think he was inviting a violent reaction from the man but perhaps he was exaggerating what actually happened - which might mean we need to take some of the detail of his description with some caution.

Hi etenguy,

Perhaps Hutch was the sort of tough geezer who knew how to look after himself, and had no qualms about inviting a violent reaction from this Del Boy character. Besides, if the man had appeared the type to kick off at the least provocation, Hutch might have been more concerned for Kelly's safety when she took him back to her place. Hutch said he was given no reason to suspect the man of wanting to harm Kelly, and if this was the ripper he'd have wanted to give the impression that he was Mr Charming - until the charm was wound up. "What? This one's desperate for rent money and inviting me back to her room? At this time of night? With my reputation? Bingo!"

Love,

Caz
X