Morris Lewis Revisited

[Joshua Rogan]

If Kelly wasn't killed until late in the morning, then surely the fire can't have been started by the killer, or it would have been still alight when her body was discovered. Isn't it more likely she lit the fire herself to dry off the clothes she'd worn in the rain?

[Abby Normal]

On the subject of the fire in 13, Millers Court:


The three reasons advanced for its lighting are:-

Provision of Light

Provision of Heat

Destruction of Evidence.

The FBI view is that most, if not all, serial killers have earlier indulged in compulsive fire starting; it might, therefore, be the case that the killer lit a fire simply because he liked lighting fires.

and/or burned the clothes out of spite

[Abby Normal]

If Kelly wasn't killed until late in the morning, then surely the fire can't have been started by the killer, or it would have been still alight when her body was discovered. Isn't it more likely she lit the fire herself to dry off the clothes she'd worn in the rain?

Hi JR
My personal belief is that the fire was started by mary when she got home with Blotchy. If he was her killer, or another late night murderer like hutch- then he burned the clothes at night. But also possible the killer started the fire after he killed her.

However, if she was killed in the daylight morning hours, then I think the killer stoked up the embers from the night before and burnt the clothes.But again possible that he started the fire from scratch-though it would be tight timewise. And I think it possible that the fire burnt back down by the time her body was discovered, especially if the only fuel was a few embers and the clothes. Also remember that police did not actually gain access to her room until a few hours after the body was discovered.

Either way I think more likely than not, her killer burnt the clothes.
And more than likely the fire was started in the evening.

[Abby Normal]

A thought just occurred to me and I am not sure it has been addressed before. mainly:

If Maxwell's story is credible one must believe that Mary vomited on the sidewalk-after already having visited a pub in the daylight morning. yet when her stomach contents were examined there was remnants of fish and potatoes found.

Wouldn't this undermine maxwells story? if she vomited, how could there be partially digested food found in her stomach?

[David Orsam]

A thought just occurred to me and I am not sure it has been addressed before. mainly:

If Maxwell's story is credible one must believe that Mary vomited on the sidewalk-after already having visited a pub in the daylight morning. yet when her stomach contents were examined there was remnants of fish and potatoes found.

Wouldn't this undermine maxwells story? if she vomited, how could there be partially digested food found in her stomach?

Hi Abby,

I think that Pierre actually made this point quite recently, albeit in a virtually incomprehensible way.

Is the answer that one does not vomit up the entire contents of the stomach when vomiting, so that some partially digested food will remain in there? (otherwise a person could never vomit more than once in succession which does not seem to be the case).

[Joshua Rogan]

That makes sense to me. But if she had been to the pub and thrown up her drink on the way back, is it plausible that she was feeling good enough to go back for another drink an hour later?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I think that Pierre actually made this point quite recently, albeit in a virtually incomprehensible way.

Is the answer that one does not vomit up the entire contents of the stomach when vomiting, so that some partially digested food will remain in there? (otherwise a person could never vomit more than once in succession which does not seem to be the case).

Hi David
I know from personal experience, having gotten sick and vomited from food poisoning, as well as drinking too much/hung over that there was nothing that could come up anymore. But admittedly after a couple of rounds of it.

If Mary had only had one bout of vomiting then I could possibly see there being some remnants.

I just know though from my own experience though it's usually all or nothing.

[Abby Normal]

That makes sense to me. But if she had been to the pub and thrown up her drink on the way back, is it plausible that she was feeling good enough to go back for another drink an hour later?

Hi jr
Not really IMHO, and I've said much before. Is it also plausible she would be in any shape to to pick up a punter/sex?

[Abby Normal]

Hey
Just thought of something.
What time was the lord mayers show to start?

[Joshua Rogan]

I'm not sure what time the parade itself started, but I think the roads on the route were closed at 11am.

[miss marple]

The landlady at the Brittainia, said MK was not in the pub that morning, the pub was not very busy. Lewis and Maxwell match each other in terms of timings but their description of MK does not match the descriptions of those who know her well.There are two irreconcilable accounts of Mary's last hours.

I think to suggest she was killed after 10 in the morning is pushing the envelope too far. The doctors were not idiots and a ball park of Mary being killed in the early hours makes more sense.
Does one believe the doctors and her friends and the landlady of Ringers or does one believe Lewis and Maxwell?

Miss Marple

[Joshua Rogan]

Hey
Just thought of something.
What time was the lord mayers show to start?

Apologies Abby, I said the roads closed at 11am earlier, when they were actually closed from 10am onwards;

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/times/18881107.html

[Joshua Rogan]

The landlady at the Brittainia, said MK was not in the pub that morning, the pub was not very busy. Lewis and Maxwell match each other in terms of timings but their description of MK does not match the descriptions of those who know her well.There are two irreconcilable accounts of Mary's last hours.

I think to suggest she was killed after 10 in the morning is pushing the envelope too far. The doctors were not idiots and a ball park of Mary being killed in the early hours makes more sense.
Does one believe the doctors and her friends and the landlady of Ringers or does one believe Lewis and Maxwell?

Miss Marple

I've sort of formed the opinion that all the descriptions of Kelly seemed to vary, but have you, or anyone, done a comparison of witness descriptions?

[Elamarna]

hi all

I can accept a TOD for Kelly between 8-10, its tight time wise, but cannot be conclusively ruled out on the medical evidence.

after 10 in my humble opinion is out just due to the time taken and the time of discovery.

i still prefer a killing at 3.30-4am, but the 2 sightings open the possibility of a later TOD.

Joshua, i have replied to your pm, just incase its not showing up again.

Steve

[Abby Normal]

Apologies Abby, I said the roads closed at 11am earlier, when they were actually closed from 10am onwards;

http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../18881107.html

Thanks JR
of course the reason I brought it up was that mary had indicated she wanted to go. and according to Maxwell and lewis and the idea of her picking a man up in the morning and bringing him back to her house seems to indicate she didn't care about going perhaps?