Morris Lewis Revisited

[Abby Normal]

The landlady at the Brittainia, said MK was not in the pub that morning, the pub was not very busy. Lewis and Maxwell match each other in terms of timings but their description of MK does not match the descriptions of those who know her well.There are two irreconcilable accounts of Mary's last hours.

I think to suggest she was killed after 10 in the morning is pushing the envelope too far. The doctors were not idiots and a ball park of Mary being killed in the early hours makes more sense.
Does one believe the doctors and her friends and the landlady of Ringers or does one believe Lewis and Maxwell?

Miss Marple

Hi MM
interesting points. Do we know if the landlady knew Mary?

anyone else care to expound or refute?

[Abby Normal]

hi all

I can accept a TOD for Kelly between 8-10, its tight time wise, but cannot be conclusively ruled out on the medical evidence.

after 10 in my humble opinion is out just due to the time taken and the time of discovery.

i still prefer a killing at 3.30-4am, but the 2 sightings open the possibility of a later TOD.

Joshua, i have replied to your pm, just incase its not showing up again.

Steve

agree with this.

[David Orsam]

Hey
Just thought of something.
What time was the lord mayers show to start?

The procession left the Guildhall at shortly after 12.30pm.

[David Orsam]

The landlady at the Brittainia, said MK was not in the pub that morning, the pub was not very busy.

Where can I find this stated by the landlady of the Britannia, Miss Marple?

[David Orsam]

I think to suggest she was killed after 10 in the morning is pushing the envelope too far. The doctors were not idiots and a ball park of Mary being killed in the early hours makes more sense.
Does one believe the doctors and her friends and the landlady of Ringers or does one believe Lewis and Maxwell?

The doctors were certainly not idiots Miss Marple but, at the same time, it wasn't possible for them to accurately estimate the time of MJK's death when they carried out their examination shortly after 1pm.

I'm also wondering which of MJK's friends had any information about the time that she was murdered.

[David Orsam]

Hi David
I know from personal experience, having gotten sick and vomited from food poisoning, as well as drinking too much/hung over that there was nothing that could come up anymore. But admittedly after a couple of rounds of it.

If Mary had only had one bout of vomiting then I could possibly see there being some remnants.

I just know though from my own experience though it's usually all or nothing.

I don't think there is any question of food poisoning here. Unless someone with medical knowledge tells us that vomiting through excessive consumption of alcohol will empty the entire contents of the stomach there isn't anything in the point.

[David Orsam]

Hi jr
Not really IMHO, and I've said much before. Is it also plausible she would be in any shape to to pick up a punter/sex?

I can think of no physical reason why someone who has just vomited cannot then eat, drink or pick up a punter for sex nor can I see why this cannot be said to be plausible.

[Abby Normal]

The procession left the Guildhall at shortly after 12.30pm.

Ok thanks david for this and your other posts.

going back to Miss marples post-do we know if the landlady knew who mary Kelly was?

[David Orsam]

going back to Miss marples post-do we know if the landlady knew who mary Kelly was?

The first thing we need to establish about Mrs Marple's post is if the landlady actually said what Mrs Marple claims she said, of which I am yet to see a contemporary source reference.

[jerryd]

The first thing we need to establish about Mrs Marple's post is if the landlady actually said what Mrs Marple claims she said, of which I am yet to see a contemporary source reference.

Hello David,

I did find this but no mention of who the source was.

Echo London Middlesex November 13, 1888

There is a beer-shop at the corner of Dorset-street, but, according to information furnished within a few hours of the discovery of the murder, the woman Kelly did not have any drink in the house on the previous night.

[jerryd]

I just realized that news clip said she was not seen on the previous night in Ringers. Not in the morning. Sorry

[miss marple]

I have been busy and going out in a minute. Very quickly, The Brittania was called Ringers because the Landlord and landlady were Mr and Mrs Ringer.

Maurice Lewis description of MK was short, abour 5,3 Dark and stout.Lloyds Weekly News. Mrs Maxwell called her a' little woman'

To everyone else she was 5.7 tall, fair as a lily, Ginger possibly certainly not short and dark. I am certain Lewis got the wrong woman.
Paul BEGG talks about the Landlady being interviewed in The Facts I have not had time yet to check the newspaper sources. Will return to this later.
i think Lewis is completely wrong.

Miss Marple

[Joshua Rogan]

Hello David,

I did find this but no mention of who the source was.

Echo London Middlesex November 13, 1888

There is a beer-shop at the corner of Dorset-street, but, according to information furnished within a few hours of the discovery of the murder, the woman Kelly did not have any drink in the house on the previous night.

Couldn't this equally be referring to the Horn of Plenty at the other end of Dorset St, rather than the Britannia / Ringers ?

[c.d.]

Hello Trevor. Thanks.

"A morning murder may point to a different killer?"

Indeed. It may also change many of our assumptions.

Cheers.
LC

I agree. Serial killers only kill at prescribed times. It's a union thing.

What's next I wonder? Different temperatures or humidity levels for each murder? Yep, a different killer.

c.d.

[David Orsam]

I have been busy and going out in a minute. Very quickly, The Brittania was called Ringers because the Landlord and landlady were Mr and Mrs Ringer.

Maurice Lewis description of MK was short, abour 5,3 Dark and stout.Lloyds Weekly News. Mrs Maxwell called her a' little woman'

To everyone else she was 5.7 tall, fair as a lily, Ginger possibly certainly not short and dark. I am certain Lewis got the wrong woman.
Paul BEGG talks about the Landlady being interviewed in The Facts I have not had time yet to check the newspaper sources. Will return to this later.
i think Lewis is completely wrong.

Hi Miss Marple,

Paul Begg's mention of the landlady's comment was discussed by John G and myself in the thread "Morris Lewis and the reporting of his story" but neither of us managed to find the source. I'd be interested to know if you can do any better.

Although MJK's height does not seem to have been established at the inquest, your point about Morris Lewis's estimate is a reasonable one but I think it's pushing it to take the reported remark of Mrs Maxwell about MJK being a "pleasant little woman" to indicate a case of mistaken identity. In the same interview, Maxwell said that she knew the woman she spoke to as "Mary Jane" and that she was stout with a fair complexion and came from Limerick and "had obviously been well connected" (as corroborated by Barnett's story about her past). It's difficult, I think, to argue from this that she had confused MJK with someone else.