Morris Lewis and the reporting of his story

[Abby Normal]

Hi David,

I searched your text and got 5 hits for the word "room" - not one of them in a statement by Morris Lewis.

Can we establish as a fact that Morris Lewis did not once mention anyone coming out of, or going into, a "room" in his statements in the newspaper articles?

Regards, Pierre

This is like watching a chimp and a theoretical physicist trying to have a conversation.

[David Orsam]

The other thing to bear in mind is that we don't have Lewis' actual words. We have his story as told by the Press Association reporter. As I mentioned in the OP, the Press Association reporter has already explained in his [third] report that the murder victim occupied "a room in a house in Dorset Street". So that is "the house" being referred to later in the same report. Lewis might have said no more than that he saw Kelly coming out of her front door at 8am which the reporter has then written up as her coming out of "the house".

But none of this really matters bearing in mind the second point in my response to Pierre (which he has simply ignored) that Lewis did not repeat his story about the milk to the LWN reporter which raises the reasonably strong suspicion that the woman he saw emerging from "the house" was not MJK anyway. So why Pierre wants to persist with a misguided and redundant point I fail to understand.

[packers stem]

I'm starting to seriously doubt it.

[GUT]

Pierre,

I even wonder if you actually understand what I'm saying.

I'm starting to seriously doubt it.

[Elamarna]

Pierre

Before saying anything else I will say now, I happen to agree with you that the statements of both Lewis,s and Maxwell are not to be taken has having a high level of reliability.
I come to this conclusion by looking at the available primary sources, relating to Millers Court on that night/morning.

However there appears to be a problem in your eyes over the terms used
lets see if this can be cleared up:

1. MJK lived in room 13 millers court- do you agree?

2. That room was part of a larger house - agree?

3. When leaving a building, one normal would say one had left the building, do you agree?

4. Room #13, was a self contained unit at the back of #26 and the only exit was out of a single door into the passage, (for the purpose of this, I am not accepting an opening door in the wall between 13 and 26). This location could be viewed as either a room, a separate flat or part of the larger house.

5. It is perfectly permitable to use "Room" as a location for the murder, and to also use "House" when referring to egress from the building itself, if the words were used the other way round it would still not be incorrect, such mixing of words in English, is very common.

Pierre, that use may not be the same in other languages, but it does happen in everyday English.

You are quoting reports from witnesses which use "Room".
David quotes reports which use "House ".

Both of you, are using contemporary reports, this just underlines this mixing of words did occur.

This is not about source criticism, this is simply the use of English
Really do not see why this is a problem for you.

Steve

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

You are really making things very difficult for yourself now.

These are the statements from the police investigation 9 November.

This is how people described the location where Mary Jane Kelly was living:

Joseph Barnett (Evans & Skinner, p. 404):
"I have been living with Marie Jeanette Kelly who occupied No 13 Room Milers Court".
"There was a woman in the room when I called".

Mary Ann Cox (ibid.):
"I have known the female occupying No 13 Room Millers Court about 8 months."
"...and as I entered the Court they went indoors, as they were going into her room..."
"...and she was still singing in her room."
"...there was no light in her room then...".

Julia Venturney (ibid., p. 406-407):
"I have known the person occupying No 13 room opposite mine for about 4 months."

Maria Harvey (ibid., p. 407):
"I saw her last about five minutes to seven last night Thursday in her own room, when Barnett called."
"I left an overcoat,...and black crape bonnett in the room...".

Inspector Walter Beck (ibid.):
"...also myself who will speak to contents of room &c if necessary."

I do no like bad teachers, David. Go back to school.

Pierre,

I know that Mary Jane Kelly lived in a room. Joe Barnett, Mary's friends, those who lived in Millers' Court and 26 Dorset Street and the police knew that her house comprised only a single room. The numbering system indicated that it was a room: Room 13 Millers Court. But it was a room in a house and anyone seeing Mary emerge from 13 Millers Court who did not know what was inside 13 Millers Court would naturally describe her as emerging from a house.

Just like all the examples I gave you.

Therefore, trying to make some sort of point about the language used by Lewis is invalid.

Now, I know that you are never going to accept this. For you, because Mary Jane Kelly lived in "room 13 Millers Court", everyone in the world who described her dwelling must have referred to it as "a room". But that is not the normal word someone who saw Mary come out of her dwelling would have used.

I even wonder if you actually understand what I'm saying.

[John G]

For information, I would note that, based on research by Chris Scott, there were 28 women, aged between 20 and 40 (assuming my maths is correct!) living at Miller's Court and 26 Dorset Street in 1891.http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-1764.html

Of course, this is the official listing so, presumably, wouldn't take into account those who resided on an unofficial or temporary basis, such as someone visiting a resident and staying overnight.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=David Orsam;374770]

Pierre!

I seriously despair. Did you actually read my post? Did you comprehend it?

Your question – to which the answer is, of course, that Lewis was not reported to have mentioned the word "room" – is seriously misguided for two reasons.

Firstly, anyone seeing Mary Jane Kelly enter or exit 13 Millers Court would have said she was entering/exiting a house. Not a room.

What is a house?

It is a "building for human habitation or occupation" – Concise Oxford English Dictionary. That is what MJK was living in.

Hi David,

You are really making things very difficult for yourself now.

These are the statements from the police investigation 9 November.

This is how people described the location where Mary Jane Kelly was living:

Joseph Barnett (Evans & Skinner, p. 404):
"I have been living with Marie Jeanette Kelly who occupied No 13 Room Milers Court".
"There was a woman in the room when I called".

Mary Ann Cox (ibid.):
"I have known the female occupying No 13 Room Millers Court about 8 months."
"...and as I entered the Court they went indoors, as they were going into her room..."
"...and she was still singing in her room."
"...there was no light in her room then...".

Julia Venturney (ibid., p. 406-407):
"I have known the person occupying No 13 room opposite mine for about 4 months."

Maria Harvey (ibid., p. 407):
"I saw her last about five minutes to seven last night Thursday in her own room, when Barnett called."
"I left an overcoat,...and black crape bonnett in the room...".

Inspector Walter Beck (ibid.):
"...also myself who will speak to contents of room &c if necessary."

I do no like bad teachers, David. Go back to school.

Regards, Pierre

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

I searched your text and got 5 hits for the word "room" - not one of them in a statement by Morris Lewis.

Can we establish as a fact that Morris Lewis did not once mention anyone coming out of, or going into, a "room" in his statements in the newspaper articles?

Pierre!

I seriously despair. Did you actually read my post? Did you comprehend it?

Your question – to which the answer is, of course, that Lewis was not reported to have mentioned the word "room" – is seriously misguided for two reasons.

Firstly, anyone seeing Mary Jane Kelly enter or exit 13 Millers Court would have said she was entering/exiting a house. Not a room.

What is a house?

It is a "building for human habitation or occupation" – Concise Oxford English Dictionary. That is what MJK was living in.

Even on its own, it was a house, a small house but a house. However, it wasn’t on its own. It was part of a much larger structure, being 26 Dorset Street (a house).

Unless a person had been inside 13 Millers Court they couldn’t possibly know if it contained one or two rooms, or many more rooms if it extended into the rest of 26 Dorset Street.

Let me just give you some concrete examples from contemporary reports to make this point good.

Daily Chronicle, 10 November 1888

"Kelly went out as usual last evening, and was seen in the neighbourhood about ten o’clock, in company with a man….The pair reached Miller-court about midnight, but they were not seen to enter the house. The street door was closed, but the woman had a latchkey, and as she must have been fairly sober, she and her companion would have been able to enter the house and reach the woman’s room without making a noise. A light was seen shining through the window of the room for some time after the couple must have entered it…About ten o’clock Mr McCarthy sent a man who works for him to the house with orders to see Kelly and obtain from her some money…"

Reynolds’s Newspaper, 11 November 1888

"There is reason to believe that the murderer was in the house the whole of the night…"

Lloyds Weekly News, 11 November 1888

"The victim occupied a single room on the ground floor of a small house in Miller’s-court, Dorset-street."

London Daily News, 12 November 1888

"Two police constables guarded the entrance to Miller’s-court, where, of course, the crowd was thickest; and the adjacent shop of the landlord of the house in which the body of the murdered woman had been found, was besieged with people..."

Sir Charles Warren to the Home Office, 9 November 1888

"Mutilated dead body of woman reported to found this morning inside room of house in Dorset Street Spitalfields."

It would have been very odd for Lewis or any other witness who had not been inside 13 Millers Court to have seen a woman emerging into Millers Court from number 13 Millers Court and to have said they had seen a woman emerging from a room. A normal person would say they had seen a woman emerging from a house.

So the point you are trying to make is quite wrong.

Secondly, and in any case, had you read my post properly, you would have seen that my conclusion is that Lewis might well not have been speaking about seeing Mary Jane Kelly emerging from 13 Millers Court when he spoke to the Press Association reporter at a very early stage, around 2pm, on 9 November, before the identity of the victim was known to journalists. As I said, it is possible that Lewis believed another woman who lived in 26 Dorset Street was the murder victim so that he did identify a woman other than MJK as the woman he saw getting some milk that morning.

The point I made is that when Lewis gave his 'statement' to a reporter for the LWN, after he had spoken to the Press Association reporter, he didn’t say anything about seeing anyone coming out of a house for milk at 8am or at any time. Instead, he said he saw MJK drinking in the Britannia Beer House, outside of which Mrs Maxwell said she saw MJK that morning.

Now Pierre, you may decide in your arbitrary, pseudo-scientific fashion, that the statement of Lewis in LWN has "low validity", or whatever expression you wish to use, but you asked me to explain the press reporting of Lewis' story and I tried to do that for you to the best of my ability. What conclusions you try to draw from it all is up to you but please don’t ask me any more ridiculous questions.

[Pierre]

Fellow members of this forum will be aware that I was tasked by none other than Pierre himself with the important mission of analysing the source of the statements in the press by Morris/Maurice Lewis.

As he posted on 22 March 2016:

'Someone should look into this. I think it would be just the right job for David Orsam. I don´t communicate with him right now, but perhaps he will read this.'

I have now completed this task and present my preliminary findings:

The news of MJK’s murder during the afternoon of 9 November was being supplied to London and regional newspapers principally by the two main press agencies: The Press Association and the Central News.

It was a Press Association reporter who spoke to Lewis on the day of the discovery of MJK’s murder so let us focus on what the Press Association was reporting that day.

The Press Association put out four separate bulletins during the afternoon of 9 November.

THE FIRST PRESS ASSOCIATION REPORT

The was released shortly after noon and was very brief and slightly inaccurate as to location:

'A woman was murdered this morning in Dorset Court, Dorset Street, Whitechapel. The particulars have not yet transpired.'

Due to the miracle of telegraphic technology the story was being seen 400 miles away by readers of the early afternoon edition of the Edinburgh Evening News.

THE SECOND PRESS ASSOCIATION REPORT

At some point between midday and one o’clock the Press Association Reporter managed to get out a more detailed account as follows:

'At half past ten this morning the dead body of a woman with her head almost severed from her body was found in an untenanted house or shed in Dorset Court, Dorset Street, Commercial Street, Spittalfields. It had evidently been there for some hours, but several scavengers who were in the court at nine o’clock this morning declare that the body was not there then. They might, however, have been mistaken as the place is very dark. An alarm was immediately raised and an inspector of police and a number of constables were soon on the spot. It is remarkable that Dorset Court is exactly opposite the houses in Dorset Street in which the unfortunate woman Annie Chapman used to lodge. The discovery created the greatest excitement in the neighbourhood, and crowds quickly gathered at the scene.'

The above is from the Edinburgh Evening News but other newspapers which carried the identical report on 9 November referred to 'an untenanted outhouse or shed' (rather than house) and corrected 'Spittalfields' to 'Spitalfields'. Instead of 'It had evidently been there...' some (e.g. Nottingham Evening Post) said of the body 'It had evidently lain there...'.

The same report in the Gloucestershire Echo of 9 November said of the body, 'It must have lain there some hours, and was quite cold' which was not in the other versions and this version did not mention anything about the scavengers.

Although some regional newspaper editors no doubt made small modifications to the Press Association stories, my conclusion from the above is that the Press Association was sending out several versions of the same report during the early afternoon, probably correcting and improving all the time.

For our purposes, the important point to note is that the victim had not yet been identified as Mary Jane Kelly.

THE THIRD PRESS ASSOCIATION REPORT

The next report was written and despatched at some point between 2pm and 3pm. The victim had still not been identified as Mary Jane Kelly but the Press Association reporter knew she was a 21 year old woman of genteel appearance who had recently separated from a man she was living with. He had also ascertained, slightly inaccurately, that the crime had been discovered by a young man named McCarthy when attempting, with his mother, to collect the rent. Further, he had picked up on rumours that the body was badly mutilated.

The most important point for our purposes is that the victim was said to be 'a young woman who occupied a room in a house in Dorset-court'.

It is in this report that we are first introduced to Morris Lewis. The relevant part of the report states:

'Morris Lewis, a tailor, states that he was playing pitch and toss in the court at nine o’clock this morning, and an hour before that he had seen the woman [some versions say ‘a woman’ some versions say ‘deceased’] leave the house and return with some milk. There is no evidence as to who was in the house with her, and up to two o’clock there was no clue as to the perpetrator of the murder.'

Note that Lewis was not, apparently, playing pitch and toss when he saw the woman leave the house because this had happened an hour before the game, making the relevance of the pitch and toss in the report somewhat uncertain and also making it unclear what he was doing in the area at 8am (and making it unclear whether he was actually in Millers Court at this time).

This report is known to have appeared in the following newspapers on 9 November:

Edinburgh Evening News
Nottingham Evening Post
South Wales Echo
Lancashire Evening Post
Gloucestershire Echo
Hull Daily Mail
Sheffield Daily Telegraph
London Evening Post

Of these six newspapers, the first four in the list refer to 'a woman' leaving the house while the last three refer to 'the woman'. The Gloucestershire Echo alone refers to 'deceased'. While I am no by means 100% certain, it would appear that 'a woman' was included in the earliest editions and it was the later editions that carried the phrase 'the woman'.

The same report was also carried in at least 19 newspapers on 10 November as follows:

London Daily News
Northampton Mercury
Dundee Courier
Leeds Mercury
Bristol Mercury
Liverpool Mercury
Western Daily Press
Blackburn Standard
Manchester Times
Dublin Daily Express
Glasgow Herald
Sheffield Daily Telegraph
Grantham Journal
Gloucestershire Echo
Manchester Courier
Gloucestershire Chronicle
Hampshire Advertiser
Wrexham Advertiser
Bucks Herald

Of these, only the Manchester Courier said 'a woman' left the house. The first 14 in the list, including the Gloucestershire Echo, which the day before had referred to 'deceased', now referred to 'the woman' leaving the house while the last four in the list all refer to 'deceased'.

Either the Press Association was sending out slightly amended versions of its reports by telegram during the day or it used some sort of sub-agency to transmit the reports to newspapers around the country which sent out slightly different versions to different newspapers.

A condensed summary of the Morris Lewis story appeared in the Times and Morning Advertiser on 10 November but it was clearly only a shortened version of the P.A. report of 9 November and can be ignored.

THE FOURTH PRESS ASSOCIATION REPORT

Before considering what Morris Lewis actually said, let us first consider the fourth Press Association report.

This report was written after the doctors emerged from Millers Court (so that the reporter manged to discover from one of them a number of details about the mutilations) but before the body was moved from that location. This allows us to place it at some time between 3pm and 4pm.

The victim’s name was now known to be Mary Jane Kelly. For our purposes, the relevant part is as follows:

'The woman’s name is Mary Jane Kelly, and the man she lived with sells oranges in the streets. It is stated that she was drinking with him after 10 o’clock this morning, and he then left to sell his oranges. He says he did not see her again.'

There was, once again, another version of this same report in some newspapers as follows:

'It is confidently stated that the deceased was seen after ten o’clock this morning in company with a paramour, when they were both drinking at a public house at the corner of Dorset-street. Her name is Mary Jane Kelly, and the man she lives with sells oranges in the streets. After speaking to her in a public house he left there to sell his oranges, and he states that he did not see her again until her corpse was discovered.'

No source is attributed to this apparent sighting of Kelly in the public house at 10:00am.

THE REPORT IN THE GLOBE

Before we consider the implications of these stories, we should note that the Fifth Edition of the Globe, timed at 4:30pm on 9 November (and, for all we know, in earlier editions too) carried a report which is similar to the Press Association’s third report of that day but seems to have come from a different source. After stating that the victim was known as 'Mary Jane' (no surname was stated) and had recently lived with a man called 'Dan' from whom she had parted, the Globe report stated:

'As far as can be ascertained, she was met this morning at a quarter past eight o’clock. She was then walking down the court with a jug, and returned shortly after with some milk. In a few minutes she came out of the house and went to a small public house, where she remained drinking for about half an hour, when she went back to meet her frightful end.'

There is no mention of Morris Lewis in this report and the information about Kelly having walked down the court with a jug does not appear in any version of the Press Association report.

WHAT DID MORRIS LEWIS SAY?

So, what do we make of all this?

Firstly, let’s dispose of the significance of the reference to the woman being said to have come out of 'the house'. The third report of the Press Association stated that the unknown victim occupied a room in 'a house', being 26 Dorset Street. So, when that same report referred to someone coming out of 'the house', this was self-evidently a reference to that same house in which the victim occupied a room. There is nothing in the use of the word 'house' which can possibly be used to justify a conclusion that the victim definitely did not emerge from 13 Millers Court. This does not mean, however, that the report is necessarily saying that the woman DID emerge from 13 Millers Court because it does not seem to be the case that the reporter knew exactly where the woman had been murdered.

As to the reference to 'a woman' versus 'the woman' versus 'deceased' it is clear that this is all a reference the same person, namely the woman who was believed to have been murdered. That is obvious from the context because the reporter makes the point that the identity of the man she was with was not known. We have no idea what Morris Lewis actually said to the Press Association reporter, and there might have been a misunderstanding, but that reporter cannot possibly have believed that Lewis was only saying that he had seen an unknown woman coming out of the house in which there had been a murder to get some milk. Whatever Lewis did actually say, the reporter undoubtedly understood him to be saying that he had not only seen a woman coming out of the victim’s house but that woman was the victim. If the reporter had understood Lewis as saying no more than that he saw a woman come out of the house who could have been anyone, this surely wouldn’t have been included in the report; certainly not in the way it was written. I am confident that the reference to 'a woman' was a mistake in the rush to get the story out and it was corrected in later versions.

However, it is fair to ask whether Morris Lewis knew at that time that the victim was Mary Jane Kelly. The Press Association had not at the time it filed its third report identified the victim by name. This suggests that Morris Lewis himself did not know the victim’s name otherwise he would surely have informed the reporter. If he thought the murdered woman was another woman, whose name he did not know, who lived in 26 Dorset Street, whom he had seen emerging from the main door along the side of the building (i.e. Prater’s door) with a jug in her hand, it is quite possible that he could have been talking about a woman other than Mary Jane Kelly, thinking this other woman to have been the murder victim.

I don’t believe that Lewis confused the victim for Caroline Maxwell. There is another report of a (male) market porter who lived at 3 Miller’s Court going out to get some milk that morning and from this it is evident that it was common practice, hence a lot of men and women that morning must have been in and out of their houses getting fresh milk for their breakfast. There is nothing special, in other words, about Mrs Maxwell purchasing milk. It's also not entirely clear to me where Mrs Maxwell lived. To a Central News reporter on 10 November she apparently said she lived in number 26 Dorset Street but at the inquest she said it was number 14 Dorset Street. If the latter then there is certainly no chance of her being mistaken for a woman emerging from number 26. Perhaps someone is able to clarify her address.

THE SUNDAY MORNING ACCOUNT

Now we need to consider the account attributed to Lewis which appeared exclusively in Lloyd’s Weekly Newspaper of 11 November 1888 and must therefore have been told to its reporter on 9 or 10 November. It read as follows:

'Maurice Lewis, a tailor, living in Dorset-street, stated that he had known the deceased woman for the last five years. Her name was Mary Jane Kelly. She was short, stout, and dark; and stood about 5 ft. 3in. He saw her on the previous (Thursday) night, between 10 and 11, at the Horn of Plenty in Dorset-street. She was drinking with some woman and also with "Dan," a man selling oranges in Billingsgate and Spitalfields markets, with whom she lived up till as recently as a fortnight ago. He knew her as a woman of the town. One of the woman whom he saw with her was known as Julia. To his knowledge she went home overnight with a man. He seemed to be respectably dressed. Whether or no the man remained all night he could not say. Soon after 10 o'clock in the morning he was playing with others at pitch and toss in M'Carthy's-court, when he heard a lad call out "copper," and he and his companions rushed away and entered a beer-house at the corner of Dorset-street, known as Ringer's. He was positive that on going in he saw Mary Jane Kelly drinking with some other people, but is not certain whether there was a man amongst them. He went home to Dorset-street on leaving the house, and about half an hour afterwards heard that Kelly had been found in her room murdered. It would then be close upon eleven o'clock.'

While Lewis cannot have known Kelly for five years (perhaps he said five months?) the obvious point of note is that, despite mentioning the game of pitch and toss in Millers Court (now supposed to have happened at 10am rather than 9am), there is no mention by him of seeing anyone going to get milk at 8am. And in the third Press Association report he didn’t mention anything about seeing the victim drinking in a beer-house at 10am.

This does, of course, call into question his credibility and reliability but one explanation for the discrepancy might be that when he first spoke to the Press Association reporter he was under the impression that a different woman who lived in 26 Dorset Street had been murdered; the woman who he saw going to get some milk at 8am. When he discovered that the murdered woman was, in fact, Mary Jane Kelly, who he knew well, he realised that he had seen her too that morning except that it was in the Britannia Beer House at 10am.

There is some support for this notion if we assume that Lewis was the source of the information in the Press Association’s Fourth Report of 9 November. Recall that this report stated

'It is confidently stated that the deceased was seen after ten o’clock this morning in company with a paramour, when they were both drinking at a public house at the corner of Dorset-street. Her name is Mary Jane Kelly, and the man she lives with sells oranges in the streets.'

Save for the fact that Lewis told LWN he was not certain that there was a man drinking with Kelly on the Friday morning, that matches the information which Lewis gave to LWN down to the part about Barnett (evidently known to him as 'Dan') selling oranges.

If we assume that Lewis was the source of the P.A.’s Fourth Report we can easily imagine that the reporter did not want to name Lewis as his source bearing in mind that this reporter had filed a report identifying Lewis as having seen the victim getting milk at 8am. That same reporter could now hardly say to all the Press Association’s clients, "oh hold on, the tailor Lewis actually saw the victim at 10am but I didn’t think to mention that in my earlier report". And he would not have wanted to rubbish the earlier report either. So as to cover up the c0ck-up of mis-identification, he simply didn’t name Lewis as his source.

Of course, it is odd that the Press Association story seems to have Barnett admitting that he left MJK in the Britannia but some wires must have got crossed there.

In considering this theory we have to note that the Globe seems to carry the two combined stories of Lewis, namely that Mary Jane got the milk AND then went to the beer house. The fact that it also refers to Barnett as 'Dan' does seem to point to Lewis as its source. I can’t really draw any sensible conclusions about the origins of the Globe’s report. If it had a special relationship with the Press Association and was getting exclusive versions of its reports then, unless it was sold a dud, this suggests that the Press Association reporter did believe that MJK had purchased the milk.

For the avoidance of any confusion, one thing to note is that the Times of 10 November merged the information from both the third and fourth Press Association stories into one paragraph so that the story about the sighting in Ringer’s follows immediately after Lewis’ story about the milk. But we don’t need to trouble about this because the source of the Times’ report was clearly the Press Association.

FINAL THOUGHTS

If Lewis was not the source of the Fourth Press Association report of 9 November then it is possible that he read about it in the newspaper during the evening of 9 November and changed his story accordingly when he spoke to the LWN reporter on (perhaps) 10 November. But that then begs the question as to who was the source of the P.A. report about Kelly drinking in a pub in the morning.

If Lewis was the source of the P.A. report then it does get interesting because Caroline Maxwell, of course, claimed to have seen Mary Jane very close to Ringer’s on the morning of 9 November at roughly the same time (if a little earlier) that Lewis says he saw her in there drinking.

Ultimately, as usual, no definite conclusions can be drawn but hopefully this post is helpful in understanding how the Lewis story developed and was reported.

Hi David,

I searched your text and got 5 hits for the word "room" - not one of them in a statement by Morris Lewis.

Can we establish as a fact that Morris Lewis did not once mention anyone coming out of, or going into, a "room" in his statements in the newspaper articles?

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

Ever get the impression that Pierre is using us to research a book for him? To which I say, well played, sir. Well played.

I prefer "using" primary sources.

Regards, Pierre

[MysterySinger]

Great post from the awesome Mr Orsam.

[John G]

Many thanks David. Very thoroughly researched, as usual.

[wigngown]

First class research David and very interesting. I'm sure Pierre will have the good grace to record his thanks too.

[Shaggyrand]

Nice work, David. Though you still didn't answer the REAL question. I don't know what that question is but I'm sure you missed it because you answered so thoroughly and it has to be dismissed so how by the original questioner.