Morris Lewis and the reporting of his story

[wigngown]

Hello Gut,
They were laughing emojis,
Best regards.

[JadenCollins]

Ever heard of Pierre Brassau, Abby...?

Just Pierre the chimp.

[JadenCollins]

😂😂😂😂😂

the perfect emoji's for this situation, wigngown 👌🏻

[Fisherman]

This is like watching a chimp and a theoretical physicist trying to have a conversation.

Ever heard of Pierre Brassau, Abby...?

[GUT]

😂😂😂😂😂

G'day Wigngown.

Not sure what you posted on my system they just show as boxes with numbers in them.

[wigngown]

😂😂😂😂😂

[GUT]

This is like watching a chimp and a theoretical physicist trying to have a conversation.

Mmmmmmm now which is which. (And I'd employ David as a researcher in a heartbeat if h was down here looking or a job and I had one going).

[Abby Normal]

Hi David,

I searched your text and got 5 hits for the word "room" - not one of them in a statement by Morris Lewis.

Can we establish as a fact that Morris Lewis did not once mention anyone coming out of, or going into, a "room" in his statements in the newspaper articles?

Regards, Pierre

This is like watching a chimp and a theoretical physicist trying to have a conversation.

[David Orsam]

The other thing to bear in mind is that we don't have Lewis' actual words. We have his story as told by the Press Association reporter. As I mentioned in the OP, the Press Association reporter has already explained in his [third] report that the murder victim occupied "a room in a house in Dorset Street". So that is "the house" being referred to later in the same report. Lewis might have said no more than that he saw Kelly coming out of her front door at 8am which the reporter has then written up as her coming out of "the house".

But none of this really matters bearing in mind the second point in my response to Pierre (which he has simply ignored) that Lewis did not repeat his story about the milk to the LWN reporter which raises the reasonably strong suspicion that the woman he saw emerging from "the house" was not MJK anyway. So why Pierre wants to persist with a misguided and redundant point I fail to understand.

[packers stem]

I'm starting to seriously doubt it.

[GUT]

Pierre,

I even wonder if you actually understand what I'm saying.

I'm starting to seriously doubt it.

[Elamarna]

Pierre

Before saying anything else I will say now, I happen to agree with you that the statements of both Lewis,s and Maxwell are not to be taken has having a high level of reliability.
I come to this conclusion by looking at the available primary sources, relating to Millers Court on that night/morning.

However there appears to be a problem in your eyes over the terms used
lets see if this can be cleared up:

1. MJK lived in room 13 millers court- do you agree?

2. That room was part of a larger house - agree?

3. When leaving a building, one normal would say one had left the building, do you agree?

4. Room #13, was a self contained unit at the back of #26 and the only exit was out of a single door into the passage, (for the purpose of this, I am not accepting an opening door in the wall between 13 and 26). This location could be viewed as either a room, a separate flat or part of the larger house.

5. It is perfectly permitable to use "Room" as a location for the murder, and to also use "House" when referring to egress from the building itself, if the words were used the other way round it would still not be incorrect, such mixing of words in English, is very common.

Pierre, that use may not be the same in other languages, but it does happen in everyday English.

You are quoting reports from witnesses which use "Room".
David quotes reports which use "House ".

Both of you, are using contemporary reports, this just underlines this mixing of words did occur.

This is not about source criticism, this is simply the use of English
Really do not see why this is a problem for you.

Steve

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

You are really making things very difficult for yourself now.

These are the statements from the police investigation 9 November.

This is how people described the location where Mary Jane Kelly was living:

Joseph Barnett (Evans & Skinner, p. 404):
"I have been living with Marie Jeanette Kelly who occupied No 13 Room Milers Court".
"There was a woman in the room when I called".

Mary Ann Cox (ibid.):
"I have known the female occupying No 13 Room Millers Court about 8 months."
"...and as I entered the Court they went indoors, as they were going into her room..."
"...and she was still singing in her room."
"...there was no light in her room then...".

Julia Venturney (ibid., p. 406-407):
"I have known the person occupying No 13 room opposite mine for about 4 months."

Maria Harvey (ibid., p. 407):
"I saw her last about five minutes to seven last night Thursday in her own room, when Barnett called."
"I left an overcoat,...and black crape bonnett in the room...".

Inspector Walter Beck (ibid.):
"...also myself who will speak to contents of room &c if necessary."

I do no like bad teachers, David. Go back to school.

Pierre,

I know that Mary Jane Kelly lived in a room. Joe Barnett, Mary's friends, those who lived in Millers' Court and 26 Dorset Street and the police knew that her house comprised only a single room. The numbering system indicated that it was a room: Room 13 Millers Court. But it was a room in a house and anyone seeing Mary emerge from 13 Millers Court who did not know what was inside 13 Millers Court would naturally describe her as emerging from a house.

Just like all the examples I gave you.

Therefore, trying to make some sort of point about the language used by Lewis is invalid.

Now, I know that you are never going to accept this. For you, because Mary Jane Kelly lived in "room 13 Millers Court", everyone in the world who described her dwelling must have referred to it as "a room". But that is not the normal word someone who saw Mary come out of her dwelling would have used.

I even wonder if you actually understand what I'm saying.

[John G]

For information, I would note that, based on research by Chris Scott, there were 28 women, aged between 20 and 40 (assuming my maths is correct!) living at Miller's Court and 26 Dorset Street in 1891.http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-1764.html

Of course, this is the official listing so, presumably, wouldn't take into account those who resided on an unofficial or temporary basis, such as someone visiting a resident and staying overnight.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=David Orsam;374770]

Pierre!

I seriously despair. Did you actually read my post? Did you comprehend it?

Your question – to which the answer is, of course, that Lewis was not reported to have mentioned the word "room" – is seriously misguided for two reasons.

Firstly, anyone seeing Mary Jane Kelly enter or exit 13 Millers Court would have said she was entering/exiting a house. Not a room.

What is a house?

It is a "building for human habitation or occupation" – Concise Oxford English Dictionary. That is what MJK was living in.

Hi David,

You are really making things very difficult for yourself now.

These are the statements from the police investigation 9 November.

This is how people described the location where Mary Jane Kelly was living:

Joseph Barnett (Evans & Skinner, p. 404):
"I have been living with Marie Jeanette Kelly who occupied No 13 Room Milers Court".
"There was a woman in the room when I called".

Mary Ann Cox (ibid.):
"I have known the female occupying No 13 Room Millers Court about 8 months."
"...and as I entered the Court they went indoors, as they were going into her room..."
"...and she was still singing in her room."
"...there was no light in her room then...".

Julia Venturney (ibid., p. 406-407):
"I have known the person occupying No 13 room opposite mine for about 4 months."

Maria Harvey (ibid., p. 407):
"I saw her last about five minutes to seven last night Thursday in her own room, when Barnett called."
"I left an overcoat,...and black crape bonnett in the room...".

Inspector Walter Beck (ibid.):
"...also myself who will speak to contents of room &c if necessary."

I do no like bad teachers, David. Go back to school.

Regards, Pierre