Schwartz v. Lawende

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Lamb: When I was fetched I was going in the direction of Berner-street. Constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. The constable who followed me down is on fixed-point duty from 9 to 5 at the end of Grove-street. All the fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m., and then the men on the beats did the whole duty.

Presumably the fixed-point constable would have been a little disappointed with Smith, if he had not made it to the fixed-point by 1am.

Some info on 426H in this JtRForum thread.

[JeffHamm]

Lamb: When I was fetched I was going in the direction of Berner-street. Constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. The constable who followed me down is on fixed-point duty from 9 to 5 at the end of Grove-street. is on fixed-point duty from 9 to 5, and then the men on the beats did the whole duty.

Presumably the fixed-point constable would have been a little disappointed with Smith, if he had not made it to the fixed-point by 1am.

Some info on 426H in this JtRForum thread.

Thanks again NBFN,

There's something odd about these bits "...is on fixed-point duty from 9 to 5....fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m.", the first seems irrelevant (who cares about duties that end at 5 with regards to a murder around 1ish?), so I'm wondering if the "9 to 5" an expression of the day that is no longer used, or perhaps a sort of Cockney Slang term? The latter clearly contradicts the first. Given the time of the crime, the latter seems the more likely relevant information, but it makes me wonder why the first, obviously irrelevant times, are even mentioned?

Ignoring my pedantic concerns, what seems important is that PC Lamb says that the PC who followed him is on fixed point duty until 1am (I think that's what he means at least), so that would seem to suggest that the men from the club cannot contact PC Lamb and the other PC until after 1 am (otherwise only PC Lamb would follow the men, as a PC on fixed point duty wouldn't be allowed to leave their station). The 9- 5 bit, though, is weird, and I'm not sure what that means, as taken literally, it seems to make nonsense out of the whole statement.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks again NBFN,

There's something odd about these bits "...is on fixed-point duty from 9 to 5....fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m.", the first seems irrelevant (who cares about duties that end at 5 with regards to a murder around 1ish?), so I'm wondering if the "9 to 5" an expression of the day that is no longer used, or perhaps a sort of Cockney Slang term? The latter clearly contradicts the first. Given the time of the crime, the latter seems the more likely relevant information, but it makes me wonder why the first, obviously irrelevant times, are even mentioned?

Ignoring my pedantic concerns, what seems important is that PC Lamb says that the PC who followed him is on fixed point duty until 1am (I think that's what he means at least), so that would seem to suggest that the men from the club cannot contact PC Lamb and the other PC until after 1 am (otherwise only PC Lamb would follow the men, as a PC on fixed point duty wouldn't be allowed to leave their station). The 9- 5 bit, though, is weird, and I'm not sure what that means, as taken literally, it seems to make nonsense out of the whole statement.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

not my best copy & paste. This is from the MA:

C: When you were called in what direction were you going?
L: I was coming towards Berner-street. Police-constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. There is a constable on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, and he came off duty at one a.m. The man on the beat then has to do his duty.

If the fixed-point officer came off duty at 1am and Smith was at Gower' Walk at that point, there might have been a protocol issue. Just maybe, Smith 'tweaked' his timings, to avoid any trouble with his bosses.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

not my best copy & paste. This is from the MA:

C: When you were called in what direction were you going?
L: I was coming towards Berner-street. Police-constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. There is a constable on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, and he came off duty at one a.m. The man on the beat then has to do his duty.

If the fixed-point officer came off duty at 1am and Smith was at Gower' Walk at that point, there might have been a protocol issue. Just maybe, Smith 'tweaked' his timings, to avoid any trouble with his bosses.

Hi NBFN,

I think those on fixed point, given their duties were subsumed by the beat PC, would probably just leave when it was 1 o'clock and didn't have to wait for the beat PC to relieve them. The beat PC would know that they were gone on their next round (and given they had to keep track of the time and their beat durations, would know when they passed him for the last time).

Fixed point PCs presumably would have to have a time piece of some sort to consult, either being at a location in sight of a clock, or perhaps were issued (or required to have) a watch on them. They would be required to record in their notebooks the time of any events they noted down, and unlike a beat PC who is likely to pass a clock at some point on their rounds, a fixed point PC can either see a clock from that location, or they cannot. If not, they would have to have a watch in order to do their job I would think. I don't know that for a fact, but it seems reasonable that they must have some way of accessing the time.

I also have a vague memory of something like a senior police officer would make the rounds to relieve the fixed point PCs, but that means they are relieved over a period of time starting at 1, rather than all finish up at 1 precisely. That seems fairly impractical, and I may be just recalling how senior officers would make the rounds to ensure the PCs were doing their beats according to regulations, etc, and have let that memory blur into relieving fixed point PCs.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi NBFN,

I think those on fixed point, given their duties were subsumed by the beat PC, would probably just leave when it was 1 o'clock and didn't have to wait for the beat PC to relieve them. The beat PC would know that they were gone on their next round (and given they had to keep track of the time and their beat durations, would know when they passed him for the last time).

Fixed point PCs presumably would have to have a time piece of some sort to consult, either being at a location in sight of a clock, or perhaps were issued (or required to have) a watch on them. They would be required to record in their notebooks the time of any events they noted down, and unlike a beat PC who is likely to pass a clock at some point on their rounds, a fixed point PC can either see a clock from that location, or they cannot. If not, they would have to have a watch in order to do their job I would think. I don't know that for a fact, but it seems reasonable that they must have some way of accessing the time.

I also have a vague memory of something like a senior police officer would make the rounds to relieve the fixed point PCs, but that means they are relieved over a period of time starting at 1, rather than all finish up at 1 precisely. That seems fairly impractical, and I may be just recalling how senior officers would make the rounds to ensure the PCs were doing their beats according to regulations, etc, and have let that memory blur into relieving fixed point PCs.

- Jeff

I’m fairly certain that Neil Bell said that it was the duty of a sergeant to go around telling Fixed Point officers that their period on duty was over. I also seem to remember Neil saying that if a sergeant wasn’t available another officer was assigned to that duty. I’ll stand correcting on this of course Jeff but I’m pretty sure that’s what Neil said.

[Wickerman]

I’m fairly certain that Neil Bell said that it was the duty of a sergeant to go around telling Fixed Point officers that their period on duty was over. I also seem to remember Neil saying that if a sergeant wasn’t available another officer was assigned to that duty. I’ll stand correcting on this of course Jeff but I’m pretty sure that’s what Neil said.

Neil has always been an invaluable source of knowledge of Met police duties & operations. He only posted a week ago, so if he is still around I would like him to confirm what you wrote above. I ask because as far as I can tell there were 26 Fixed Point Duties in H Division, Two of which extended until 7:00 am, so we have 24 constables all finishing their F.P. duty at 1:00 am. How many sergeant's are sent out across the division to enable the constables to be relieved at 1:00am?
It just doesn't seem all that practical to me.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Neil has always been an invaluable source of knowledge of Met police duties & operations. He only posted a week ago, so if he is still around I would like him to confirm what you wrote above. I ask because as far as I can tell there were 26 Fixed Point Duties in H Division, Two of which extended until 7:00 am, so we have 24 constables all finishing their F.P. duty at 1:00 am. How many sergeant's are sent out across the division to enable the constables to be relieved at 1:00am?
It just doesn't seem all that practical to me.

When you put it like that I can certainly see your point. Maybe I misremembered what Neil said? I started up an ‘Ask Monty’ thread a while ago so I’ll put the question there.

[JeffHamm]

I’m fairly certain that Neil Bell said that it was the duty of a sergeant to go around telling Fixed Point officers that their period on duty was over. I also seem to remember Neil saying that if a sergeant wasn’t available another officer was assigned to that duty. I’ll stand correcting on this of course Jeff but I’m pretty sure that’s what Neil said.

I have a vague memory of that too. But similar to Wickerman, it seems inefficient to send out someone who has to go all over the place to tell them it is the end of their shift.

And if there was a sergeant making rounds, where is he? He should show up I would think give he has to relieve the above mentioned FP Pc and couldn't help but notice the commotion at the club so would have to ooo down for a "What's all this then?" at the very least.

But, maybe that was how it was done: administration can produce odd protocols.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have a vague memory of that too. But similar to Wickerman, it seems inefficient to send out someone who has to go all over the place to tell them it is the end of their shift.

And if there was a sergeant making rounds, where is he? He should show up I would think give he has to relieve the above mentioned FP Pc and couldn't help but notice the commotion at the club so would have to ooo down for a "What's all this then?" at the very least.

But, maybe that was how it was done: administration can produce odd protocols.

- Jeff

That gives me hope that I’m not entirely imagining things. We need Monty on this one. If I right I promise not to look smug Jeff.

[Wickerman]

The thing is, superficially, if you have 24 F.P. constables who have to be relieved at 1:00 am. That means you need 24 sergeants on night duty to relieve all of them on time. If one sergeant has to relieve two F.P. constables, then one of them is going to be late.
I'm just thinking there must be more to it than that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The thing is, superficially, if you have 24 F.P. constables who have to be relieved at 1:00 am. That means you need 24 sergeants on night duty to relieve all of them on time. If one sergeant has to relieve two F.P. constables, then one of them is going to be late.
I'm just thinking there must be more to it than that.

Maybe they all had to go back to the station so that in the end they all finished and went home at the same time?

[JeffHamm]

The thing is, superficially, if you have 24 F.P. constables who have to be relieved at 1:00 am. That means you need 24 sergeants on night duty to relieve all of them on time. If one sergeant has to relieve two F.P. constables, then one of them is going to be late.
I'm just thinking there must be more to it than that.

Yah, that's what I was thinking too, there would be a staggering of relief times. Unless, I suppose, the sergeant would make the rounds before 1:00, and tell the fixed point officer how much time was remaining? That way, all of them would be tied to the sergeant's watch as an official time to clock off ("I say, that clock is 5 minutes fast, so you're on duty until it reads 1:05") type thing?

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Did the sergeant do his rounds on a bicycle, blowing a whistle to signify end of shift?
Sounding more like pantomime now

[Wickerman]

Maybe they all had to go back to the station so that in the end they all finished and went home at the same time?

I think the procedure was for a constable to write a report at the station after his shift was over. So it seems they would not finish work at 1:00, that was just the end of duty time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think the procedure was for a constable to write a report at the station after his shift was over. So it seems they would not finish work at 1:00, that was just the end of duty time.

So it wasn’t a matter of the Fixed Point PC that the sergeant saw first going home much earlier than the one that he got to last then.