Schwartz v. Lawende

[S.Brett]

Hi Paddy, Hi Jeff,

please see my post (1073)

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=290410#post290410

In my theory Aaron Kozminski had already been a strong (prime) suspect in October 1888.

After the killing of Kelly the first man the police visited on 9 November 1888 would have been "Kosminski". I think it is quite possible that they did not find him. The reason for this?

Blurring the traces and talking to the officers? I would not put it past him. Or am I mistaken?

But if he was seen by a witness in Millerīs Court? How he would have reacted? I still lack the faith that Schwartz or Lawende, one of them, had been the Jewish Seaside Home witness.

Or did he plan a hiding place, through fear of the police, after another murder?

Info from RIP128 New Light on Aaron Kosminski (Chris Phillips and myself)

I know it very well. Great work.

Yours Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Paddy, Hi Jeff,

please see my post (1073)

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=290410#post290410

In my theory Aaron Kozminski had already been a strong (prime) suspect in October 1888.

After the killing of Kelly the first man the police visited on 9 November 1888 would have been "Kosminski". I think it is quite possible that they did not find him. The reason for this?

Blurring the traces and talking to the officers? I would not put it past him. Or am I mistaken?

But if he was seen by a witness in Millerīs Court? How he would have reacted? I still lack the faith that Schwartz or Lawende, one of them, had been the Jewish Seaside Home witness.

Or did he plan a hiding place, through fear of the police, after another murder?
.

OK but we also have the bloody shirt in Batty street and the excuse about the cut corn....

Was Kozminski hurt in one of the attacks, I'm thinking of the bloody apron in Goulston Street?

Was kozminski in the infirmary?

Also if your correct about his family (Cousin) suspecting him of being Jack the Ripper it still doesn't make him Jack the Ripper, infact given that he was followed and the police got nothing on him....and presumable Schwartz and Lawende didn't ID him then the case is weak upto March 1889

Remember even Anderson says the police didn't have a clue in August 1889.

So if your Millers court witness did exist he isn't found until after this date?

And i think it probable that Kozminski was off the radar for almost two years, the Seaside Home ID not taking place until shortly before Kozminski enters Colney Hatch...

And we still have the Sims problem....he was at large for some time

Suggesting Sims must have spoken to Anderson

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

OK but we also have the bloody shirt in Batty street and the excuse about the cut corn....

Was Kozminski hurt in one of the attacks, I'm thinking of the bloody apron in Goulston Street?

Was kozminski in the infirmary?

Sheffield Evening Telegraph Fri 12th Oct 1888:

The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances.

Hampshire Advertiser, Oct. 13, 1888:

A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance.

Also if your correct about his family (Cousin) suspecting him of being Jack the Ripper it still doesn't make him Jack the Ripper, infact given that he was followed and the police got nothing on him....and presumable Schwartz and Lawende didn't ID him then the case is weak upto March 1889

Bloody shirts, cutting his corn, infirmary... suspected by his own sister (Matilda?)...? And her own husband (Morris, cousin and brothers-in-law) asked Packer whether he had seen his cousin (after the Kelly murder). It makes sense as Packerīs home was located between Greenfield Street (Matilda & Morris) and Providence Street (Woolf). And it is quite possible that Packer was used to see Aaron in Berner Street.

Remember even Anderson says the police didn't have a clue in August 1889.

So if your Millers court witness did exist he isn't found until after this date?

And i think it probable that Kozminski was off the radar for almost two years, the Seaside Home ID not taking place until shortly before Kozminski enters Colney Hatch...

And we still have the Sims problem....he was at large for some time

Suggesting Sims must have spoken to Anderson

Aaron was at large December 1889, July 1890 and shortly before he was admitted to Colney Hatch 1891 (Swansonīs brotherīs house in Whitechapel/ Sions Square)

[Jeff Leahy]

Aaron was at large December 1889,

Good morning Karsten

Obviously I get that...but did the police know or suspect him at that time? Did they know he was out?

Perhaps kozminski went to court and know one connected him to the murders the previous year?

But I admit Sims is a problem to that statement, unless he simply later connects the information he gets as one event rather than two

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Jeff, my dear friend!

Perhaps kozminski went to court and know one connected him to the murders the previous year?

In this case the Whitechapel murders were not important (if he was Jack the Ripper).

Obviously I get that...but did the police know or suspect him at that time? Did they know he was out?

Yes, I think they did he was out.

Again:

Sheffield Evening Telegraph Fri 12th Oct 1888:

The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances.

Hampshire Advertiser, Oct. 13, 1888:

A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance.

Daily News
United Kingdom
18 October 1888

http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../18881018.html

From more than one source the police authorities have, it is said, received information tending to show that the East-end murderer is a foreigner who was known as having lived within a radius of a few hundred yards from the scene of the Berner-street tragedy. The very place where he lodges is asserted to be within official cognizance. If the man be the real culprit, he lived some time ago with a woman, by whom he has been accused. Her statements are, it is stated, now being inquired into. In the meantime the suspected assassin is "shadowed." Incriminating evidence of a certain character has already been obtained, and, should implicit credence be placed upon the story of the woman already referred to, whose name will not transpire under any circumstances until after his guilt is prima facie established, a confession of the crimes may, it is said, be looked for at any moment. The accused is himself aware, it is believed, of the suspicions entertained against him. With regard to the statements current as to finding a blood-stained shirt at a lodging-house in Whitechapel, it appears the story is founded on some matters which occurred more than a fortnight ago.

Aftonbladet (Sweden)

October 26th, 1888

“The murderer of Whitechapel has as yet managed to avoid detection. It is said that the prime suspect is now a foreigner who was living not far from Berner St when the murders took place. He has been reported to the police by a woman who he has been living with and is at present under close surveillance”.

The Bristol Mercury (Bristol)
29 December 1888

“The Dublin Express London correspondent on Thursday gave as the latest police theory concerning the Whitechapel murderer, that he has fallen under the strong suspicion of his near relatives, who to avert a terribly family disgrace, may have placed him out of harm's way in safe keeping. As showing that there is a certain amount of credence attached to this story, detectives have recently visited all the registered private lunatic asylums, and made full inquiries as to the inmates recently admitted.”

Rob House:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6794

"JACK THE RIPPER’S VACATION
A Possible Explanation of the Suspension of Whitechapel Horrors

(1890) Halifax, N.S. July 28.

A curious story has got out here that if true explains the long rest which Jack the Ripper has been taking from his diabolical work in the Whitechapel district, London. A lady from this city visiting a distinguished official in London, states in a letter written to friends here that the Ripper has been under arrest in the London metropolis for some time. He is a medical student and was arrested on the strength of information given by his own sister.

The authorities, the letter states, have kept the matter a strict secret in order to work up the case against the prisoner, and they are said to have a very complete chain of evidence.

These statements are vouched for by the writer of the letter who came into possession of the facts accidentally. The person who makes the story public, however, refuses to divulge her name."

Crawford letter (no date):

“2 CAVENDISH SQUARE
W.

My dear Anderson,

I send you this line to ask you to see & hear the bearer, whose name is unknown to me. She has or thinks she has a knowledge of the author of the Whitechapel murders. The author is supposed to be nearly related to her, & she is in great fear lest any suspicions should attach to her & place her & her family in peril.

I have advised her to place the whole story before you, without giving you any names, so that you may form an opinion as to its being worth while to investigate."

Very sincerely yours,
Crawford“

18 October 1888: a woman, by whom he has been accused
26 October 1888: reported to the police by a woman who he has been living with
29 December 1888: the strong suspicion of his near relatives

Between 18 October 1888 and December 1888 the Brick Lane incident (on 22 November 1888) took place, a woman was named, “Matilda”. 34 years of age. Aaron Kozminskiīs sister, Matilda Lubnowski was 34 years of age in 1888. The suspect pulled a knife. We know, via Jacob Cohen, that Aaron Kozminski (at some point) took up a knife & threatened the life of his sister.

Halifax, N.S. July 28 1890: on the strength of information given by his own sister
Crawford letter: She has or thinks she has a knowledge of the author of the Whitechapel murders. The author is supposed to be nearly related to her

I think it is quite possible that the Crawford letter was written in October 1888! Rob House pointed out that, shortly before this information appeared in Halifax (28 July 1890), Aaron Kozminski was admitted to the Mile End Road Infirmary (12-15 July 1890) and sees a link between the Seaside Home identification and the Halifax press report. This is quite possible. But I think it doesn't necessarily mean that this has been the case.

Remember via Macnaghten: Hospital in London and now medical student

You see, a "strong suspect" (Macnaghten) and I think they did know if he was out.

And about 14 November 1888 Morris Lubnowski made the statement to Packer that "he was of opinion that his cousin had committed the foul deeds"

Maybe that Matilda & Morris Lubnowski had been the (only) branch of the Kozminski family looking for help (Matilda to Anderson).

Maybe that the City PC (possibly) and Packer (poor witness) had seen "Kosminski" on the night of the Double Events with victims (Eddowes & Stride).

Yours, Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff, my dear friend!

In this case the Whitechapel murders were not important (if he was Jack the Ripper).



Yes, I think they did he was out.

Again:

Sheffield Evening Telegraph Fri 12th Oct 1888:

The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances.

Hampshire Advertiser, Oct. 13, 1888:

A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance.

Daily News
United Kingdom
18 October 1888

http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../18881018.html

From more than one source the police authorities have, it is said, received information tending to show that the East-end murderer is a foreigner who was known as having lived within a radius of a few hundred yards from the scene of the Berner-street tragedy. The very place where he lodges is asserted to be within official cognizance. If the man be the real culprit, he lived some time ago with a woman, by whom he has been accused. Her statements are, it is stated, now being inquired into. In the meantime the suspected assassin is "shadowed." Incriminating evidence of a certain character has already been obtained, and, should implicit credence be placed upon the story of the woman already referred to, whose name will not transpire under any circumstances until after his guilt is prima facie established, a confession of the crimes may, it is said, be looked for at any moment. The accused is himself aware, it is believed, of the suspicions entertained against him. With regard to the statements current as to finding a blood-stained shirt at a lodging-house in Whitechapel, it appears the story is founded on some matters which occurred more than a fortnight ago.

Aftonbladet (Sweden)

October 26th, 1888

“The murderer of Whitechapel has as yet managed to avoid detection. It is said that the prime suspect is now a foreigner who was living not far from Berner St when the murders took place. He has been reported to the police by a woman who he has been living with and is at present under close surveillance”.

The Bristol Mercury (Bristol)
29 December 1888

“The Dublin Express London correspondent on Thursday gave as the latest police theory concerning the Whitechapel murderer, that he has fallen under the strong suspicion of his near relatives, who to avert a terribly family disgrace, may have placed him out of harm's way in safe keeping. As showing that there is a certain amount of credence attached to this story, detectives have recently visited all the registered private lunatic asylums, and made full inquiries as to the inmates recently admitted.”

Rob House:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6794

"JACK THE RIPPER’S VACATION
A Possible Explanation of the Suspension of Whitechapel Horrors

(1890) Halifax, N.S. July 28.

A curious story has got out here that if true explains the long rest which Jack the Ripper has been taking from his diabolical work in the Whitechapel district, London. A lady from this city visiting a distinguished official in London, states in a letter written to friends here that the Ripper has been under arrest in the London metropolis for some time. He is a medical student and was arrested on the strength of information given by his own sister.

The authorities, the letter states, have kept the matter a strict secret in order to work up the case against the prisoner, and they are said to have a very complete chain of evidence.

These statements are vouched for by the writer of the letter who came into possession of the facts accidentally. The person who makes the story public, however, refuses to divulge her name."

Crawford letter (no date):

“2 CAVENDISH SQUARE
W.

My dear Anderson,

I send you this line to ask you to see & hear the bearer, whose name is unknown to me. She has or thinks she has a knowledge of the author of the Whitechapel murders. The author is supposed to be nearly related to her, & she is in great fear lest any suspicions should attach to her & place her & her family in peril.

I have advised her to place the whole story before you, without giving you any names, so that you may form an opinion as to its being worth while to investigate."

Very sincerely yours,
Crawford“

18 October 1888: a woman, by whom he has been accused
26 October 1888: reported to the police by a woman who he has been living with
29 December 1888: the strong suspicion of his near relatives

Between 18 October 1888 and December 1888 the Brick Lane incident (on 22 November 1888) took place, a woman was named, “Matilda”. 34 years of age. Aaron Kozminskiīs sister, Matilda Lubnowski was 34 years of age in 1888. The suspect pulled a knife. We know, via Jacob Cohen, that Aaron Kozminski (at some point) took up a knife & threatened the life of his sister.

Halifax, N.S. July 28 1890: on the strength of information given by his own sister
Crawford letter: She has or thinks she has a knowledge of the author of the Whitechapel murders. The author is supposed to be nearly related to her

I think it is quite possible that the Crawford letter was written in October 1888! Rob House pointed out that, shortly before this information appeared in Halifax (28 July 1890), Aaron Kozminski was admitted to the Mile End Road Infirmary (12-15 July 1890) and sees a link between the Seaside Home identification and the Halifax press report. This is quite possible. But I think it doesn't necessarily mean that this has been the case.

Remember via Macnaghten: Hospital in London and now medical student

You see, a "strong suspect" (Macnaghten) and I think they did know if he was out.

And about 14 November 1888 Morris Lubnowski made the statement to Packer that "he was of opinion that his cousin had committed the foul deeds"

Maybe that Matilda & Morris Lubnowski had been the (only) branch of the Kozminski family looking for help (Matilda to Anderson).

Maybe that the City PC (possibly) and Packer (poor witness) had seen "Kosminski" on the night of the Double Events with victims (Eddowes & Stride).

Yours, Karsten.

Ok I'm going with your flow.... But if the Crawford letter is indeed earlier is it also possible that the ID took place earlier?

And if thats the case why the ++ck did they release Kozminski as sane in July 1890? Still scratchin my head....but your news paper articles are compelling

Many thanks for your hard work putting this post together

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

But if the Crawford letter is indeed earlier is it also possible that the ID took place earlier?

No! If Matilda and Morris were looking for help in October 1888 (remember:Woolf moved away in October) then, for sure, Schwartz and Lawende had to take a look at Aaron Kozminski... and failed... no one ever saw the Whitechapel murder... unless the City PC (in height & build, he had not seen the face of the man)... and maybe Packer (a poor witness)... but I am sure when he was brought to the Seaside Home he knew "Now is the moment of truth", he knew he was "identified" at one of the crime scenes (I guess Millers Court"), and he knew the police had found this witness, late, but not too late... and when he saw the witness:

he knew he was identified

And if thats the case why the ++ck did they release Kozminski as sane in July 1890? Still scratchin my head....but your news paper articles are compelling

Why, Jeff, why? For what reason? No legal proof... NO LEGAL PROOF ever...

Many thanks for your hard work putting this post together

Yours Karsten.

[S.Brett]

Remember via Macnaghten: Hospital in London and now medical student

Correction:

The same mistake twice, today /the first on JTR Forums, the second on Casebook

Hospital in Poland, not London.

[Hamrammr]

This may seem like it's coming out of nowhere, but . . . It strikes me as more likely (given witness descriptions and the willingness of the victims to give the killer their trade) that he was a well-dressed, respectable and even attractive man (comparitively) than someone of Kosminksi's appearance and nature, given what we know about him.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

I 'may' have been reading Bruce Robinson . . . 'may.'

Thanks,
Dean

[Abby Normal]

This may seem like it's coming out of nowhere, but . . . It strikes me as more likely (given witness descriptions and the willingness of the victims to give the killer their trade) that he was a well-dressed, respectable and even attractive man (comparitively) than someone of Kosminksi's appearance and nature, given what we know about him.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

I 'may' have been reading Bruce Robinson . . . 'may.'

Thanks,
Dean

no I would say your barking up the right tree.

But the Koz group will counter with- theres no evidence he was crazy in 1888, or what he looked like or If he had money. and that none if it matters anyway because were dealing with desperate, drunk whitechapel whores who couldn't tell the difference anyway.



But I think this quote is telling from someone who knew him and was there:
"he hadn't attempted any work for years".

[Hamrammr]

Thanks. Everything I hear about Kosminski in terms of behaviour and appearance makes him sound like someone unlikely to a) be deceptive/clever enough to get the women where he wanted them b) able to get away without being caught or seen and c) fit any of the witness descriptions.

Also, I can't leave the whole Packer/grapes thing alone. It's bothering me now and it never used to.

[Rosella]

They did find a fruit-stained hanky in among Stide's possessions. Unfortunately, there's no knowing whether she had had grapes earlier in the day and they'd been fully digested or maybe she'd been sucking on an orange and had mopped herself down. It's an odd item to have in her possession when we know Liz hadn't eaten any grapes shortly before she was killed, all the same.

[Hamrammr]

The grapes of wrath . . .

[Rosella]

I've been reading 'Rivals to the Ripper' by Jan Bondeson at the moment which I am enjoying. Fruit came into an earlier London murder of a prostitute who was found murdered in her room. According to a theorist on the case, lemon juice was used by prostitutes in the 19th century as a safeguard against STD's. According to the theorist the client may have had some lemon juice enter his uthefra, causing pain, which enraged him enough to kill her!

[jerryd]

I've been reading 'Rivals to the Ripper' by Jan Bondeson at the moment which I am enjoying. Fruit came into an earlier London murder of a prostitute who was found murdered in her room. According to a theorist on the case, lemon juice was used by prostitutes in the 19th century as a safeguard against STD's. According to the theorist the client may have had some lemon juice enter his uthefra, causing pain, which enraged him enough to kill her!

Fruit also came into play in the Pinchin Torso case. Fresh plums were found in the stomach contents.