Schwartz v. Lawende

[John G]

Same dimension as a stack of Der Arbeter Fraint.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Wouldn't that depend on whether it was a full stack of papers? And, if that was the case, presumably that would indicate a suspect who had just left the club premises, where the paper was published, however, we know of no such individual.

[Jon Guy]

And, if that was the case, presumably that would indicate a suspect who had just left the club premises, where the paper was published, however, we know of no such individual.

Hi John

But we do know of such an individual:

William Wess: "Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there,"

[Jon Guy]

So throat cuts have to be categorized by district to be counted? It was the third throat cut, which was mentioned to counter your idea that they were rare in London. Knife attacks were by far the most prevalent means of attack with weapons, the only time we need to look closer at a cut throat is when it is followed by abdominal mutilation. In Strides case, its an attack with a knife...like loads of others. Slit throat, stabs, slashes ...all knife attacks are what they are unless they are only a part of the complete act.

Liz Strides murder was a completed act.

Unsolved murders is the key, Michael
That`s what the Ripper police files consist of.

[John G]

Hi John

But we do know of such an individual:

William Wess: "Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there,"

Hi Jon,

Thanks for this, I'd forgotten about him; in fact, to echo Pierre, perhaps this is a case of "I think I have found him!" However, being slightly more serious, I doubt that he was Stride's killer, or the suspect seen by PC Smith, who I also believe were one and the same.

Thus, if he murdered Stride, would he have admitted going into the Yard? And, being forthcoming with that information, isn't it likely he would also have admitted being the man PC Smith saw talking to Stride?

Of course, he also stated that he finally left the club at around 12:15 to go to his lodgings, which I think would have been around half an hour prior to PC Smith's sighting of Stride with the suspect.

Personally, I think if any club member had anything serious to hide, expecting other club members to cover for him, I doubt they would have admitted leaving, or returning, to the club at all prior to the time when the victim's body was found.

[Jon Guy]

Hi John

Thus, if he murdered Stride, would he have admitted going into the Yard? And, being forthcoming with that information, isn't it likely he would also have admitted being the man PC Smith saw talking to Stride?.

Possibly, just saying.. that there was someone who was wandering around with literature, and remember this was a hanging offence, and jews were catching the blame, so a little caution may have been needed.

Of course, he also stated that he finally left the club at around 12:15 to go to his lodgings, which I think would have been around half an hour prior to PC Smith's sighting of Stride with the suspect.

Didn`t you put forward some new timings for PC Smith ?
Perhaps, Wess was out with his time keeping

[John G]

Hi John



Possibly, just saying.. that there was someone who was wandering around with literature, and remember this was a hanging offence, and jews were catching the blame, so a little caution may have been needed.



Didn`t you put forward some new timings for PC Smith ?
Perhaps, Wess was out with his time keeping

Hi Jon,

Yes, it's certainly possible that Wess was out with his timings, as evidenced by errors other witnesses made when reporting the time that they first became aware of Stride's murder: Kozebrodsky, out by 20 minutes; Heschberg, by 15 minutes; Spooner by around half an hour.

Regarding PC Smith, I think he was out by about 10 minutes. Thus, he thought he'd arrived back on Berner Street at 1:00am, having completed a circuit of his beat. And, on the basis that his beat took 25-30 minutes to complete, he estimated he saw Stride's with the suspect between 12:30-12:35.

However, he couldn't possibly have been correct, as Stride's body wasn't discovered until 1:00am, and by the time PC Smith arrived, PC Lamb was already at the murder scene, and he'd arrived at about 1:05. Moreover, after checking Stride was dead, he went for an ambulance, passing Edward Johnston on the way out. As Johnston arrived at about 1:12-1:13, that suggests to me that PC Smith actually completed his beat circuit at about 1:10, which would indicates that it was probably 12:40-12:45 when he saw Stride with the suspect.

This also chimes with Mortimer's evidence, i.e. that she went to her doorstep at about 12:45 after hearing the "heavy tread" of a police officer passing by, possibly disturbing Stride's killer who, I believe, probably inveigled Stride into Dutfield's Yard as soon as Smith was out of sight.

[Michael W Richards]

Unsolved murders is the key, Michael
That`s what the Ripper police files consist of.

The subtext of the point Im trying to make here John is that it would be strange if an attack on any woman in that area during those years didnt involve a knife in some form. You can set a granular scope.....like deep knife cuts of the throat for example,...I myself would also add mutilations to any Ripper profile.... but the truth is that by far the knife was the most frequently used weapon of that era...it was cheap, readily accessible, and potentially lethal.

Slashes, cut throats, threats with knives...they are all knife crimes, like some of the women in the unsolved murders file died from.

People make such an issue of the throats being slit....I wonder why they dont isolate the cases where the throat is slit twice then? Are you aware that people sometimes slit their own throats?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jon,

Yes, it's certainly possible that Wess was out with his timings, as evidenced by errors other witnesses made when reporting the time that they first became aware of Stride's murder: Kozebrodsky, out by 20 minutes; Heschberg, by 15 minutes; Spooner by around half an hour.

Regarding PC Smith, I think he was out by about 10 minutes. Thus, he thought he'd arrived back on Berner Street at 1:00am, having completed a circuit of his beat. And, on the basis that his beat took 25-30 minutes to complete, he estimated he saw Stride's with the suspect between 12:30-12:35.

However, he couldn't possibly have been correct, as Stride's body wasn't discovered until 1:00am, and by the time PC Smith arrived, PC Lamb was already at the murder scene, and he'd arrived at about 1:05. Moreover, after checking Stride was dead, he went for an ambulance, passing Edward Johnston on the way out. As Johnston arrived at about 1:12-1:13, that suggests to me that PC Smith actually completed his beat circuit at about 1:10, which would indicates that it was probably 12:40-12:45 when he saw Stride with the suspect.

This also chimes with Mortimer's evidence, i.e. that she went to her doorstep at about 12:45 after hearing the "heavy tread" of a police officer passing by, possibly disturbing Stride's killer who, I believe, probably inveigled Stride into Dutfield's Yard as soon as Smith was out of sight.

Doesnt bode well for a supposed Schwartz sighting then. For one, because he wasnt seen anywhere at that time.

[Michael W Richards]

[QUOTE=John G;370517]Hi Jon,

Yes, it's certainly possible that Wess was out with his timings, as evidenced by errors other witnesses made when reporting the time that they first became aware of Stride's murder: Kozebrodsky, out by 20 minutes; Heschberg, by 15 minutes; Spooner by around half an hour.

QUOTE]

It doesnt trouble you that you have to assume such large time errors to explain away some troubling isssues? Issac K is off by 20 minutes??, even though he arrived back at the club and recollected being called out to see the body in approx 10 minutes, and recounted this memory within 1 hour of the discovery? What about his claim he was sent out alone by Louis? Doesnt bother you that no-one but Issac tells this story?

[John G]

Doesnt bode well for a supposed Schwartz sighting then. For one, because he wasnt seen anywhere at that time.

Yes, I absolutely agree. This is clearly another factor that seriously undermines his testimony. However, I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility that he also got his times mixed up, with the incident he claims to have witnessed occurring significantly earlier.

[Jon Guy]

....I wonder why they dont isolate the cases where the throat is slit twice then?

Some people do, Mike.
But even then they can`t get that fact correct

[John G]

[QUOTE=Michael W Richards;370523]

Hi Jon,

Yes, it's certainly possible that Wess was out with his timings, as evidenced by errors other witnesses made when reporting the time that they first became aware of Stride's murder: Kozebrodsky, out by 20 minutes; Heschberg, by 15 minutes; Spooner by around half an hour.

QUOTE]

It doesnt trouble you that you have to assume such large time errors to explain away some troubling isssues? Issac K is off by 20 minutes??, even though he arrived back at the club and recollected being called out to see the body in approx 10 minutes, and recounted this memory within 1 hour of the discovery? What about his claim he was sent out alone by Louis? Doesnt bother you that no-one but Issac tells this story?

Well, Heshburg was clearly mistaken because he said it was 12:45 when he was alerted by the policeman's whistle. And, according to the newspaper report, Kozebrodsky spoke "imperfect English", which might explain some of the confusion regarding his evidence. He's also reported as saying that Stride had grapes in her right hand, which of course the doctors didn't note.

[Michael W Richards]

[QUOTE=John G;370530]

Well, Heshburg was clearly mistaken because he said it was 12:45 when he was alerted by the policeman's whistle. And, according to the newspaper report, Kozebrodsky spoke "imperfect English", which might explain some of the confusion regarding his evidence. He's also reported as saying that Stride had grapes in her right hand, which of course the doctors didn't note.

Heschberg heard a police whistle, there is no indication from which direction or how loud that sound was. He also said 2 or 3 people were already by the body, which could easily have been Louis, Issac, and/or even Spooner, based on the timings given by those witnesses. He obviously felt no allegiance to Louis or the club, he didnt even know Louis by name, so the fact that his times differ shows us that he didnt temper his timings to match Louis's or to favour the club. Other people, like Morris, may have.

"Imperfect English"doesnt hold water when we have his statement transcript from the Daily News, in very understandable english...""I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom".[1]

Again, on this one point....who aside from Issac tells of his being sent out by Louis alone? Does Louis mention it? Or Eagle? Since they dont, one wonders what else they missed, or changed, within their statements.

[Wickerman]

Wasn't the newspaper parcel described by pc Smith said to be 18" x 6"?
That's an awful lot of grapes!

The size of the parcel was reported as "eighteen" inches long in some reports, and "eight" inches long in others.

The London Daily Standard and The Western Daily Press are two I can recall who reported "eight", not "eighteen".



So the package could have been square, being "eight inches long by six or eight inches wide". It is best to be reminded, the dimensions given by the constable are all estimates, offered by someone who had no reason to remember the package in any way.

A package 6 x 8, or 8 x 8, is more consistent with a half pound of grapes, and grapes can vary in size from as small as a cherry to as big as your thumb.
All we are told is they were the black ones (purple, actually - hence the fruit stain).

When two independent witnesses (Packer & PC Smith), both see Stride with a man at the same time, and standing at the same place, and one witness says he gave the man a package, and the other witness says the man was carrying a package, then minute differences between the size of the package, or the style of hat are immaterial.

Stride couldn't have been with two different men at the same time, and at the same place. That is the point - they must be the same man.

[John G]

The size of the parcel was reported as "eighteen" inches long in some reports, and "eight" inches long in others.

The London Daily Standard and The Western Daily Press are two I can recall who reported "eight", not "eighteen".



So the package could have been square, being "eight inches long by six or eight inches wide". It is best to be reminded, the dimensions given by the constable are all estimates, offered by someone who had no reason to remember the package in any way.

A package 6 x 8, or 8 x 8, is more consistent with a half pound of grapes, and grapes can vary in size from as small as a cherry to as big as your thumb.
All we are told is they were the black ones (purple, actually - hence the fruit stain).

When two independent witnesses (Packer & PC Smith), both see Stride with a man at the same time, and standing at the same place, and one witness says he gave the man a package, and the other witness says the man was carrying a package, then minute differences between the size of the package, or the style of hat are immaterial.

Stride couldn't have been with two different men at the same time, and at the same place. That is the point - they must be the same man.

Hello Jon,

But didn't most newspapers report that Packer sold the grapes at 11:00am, well before PC Smith's sighting? Moreover, he stated that he closed the shop early because of the rain; this creates problems because the rain had stopped at 11:00 am, and he's also reported as saying that he observed the man and woman standing in the rain for over half an hour, prior to closing the shop, meaning that he could have sold the grapes as early as 10:30. And the 11:00am time also conflicts with Best and Gardner's evidence.

Of course, the fact that Stride's clothes were not found to be wet, when her body was discovered, also creates problems.