Schwartz v. Lawende

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Jeff,

But isn't the real difficulty here that we cannot place too much faith on any of the timings given by witnesses as they were merely estimates. Even PC Smith relied on an assumption that his beat took around 25-30 minutes and that he returned to Berner Street at 1:00am, although I'm not sure how he can be certain about that. To put it simply, if every witness claimed to have been outside the club at 12:45, but saw no-one else, they could all have been telling the truth but mistaken as to timings-Edward Spooner, for instance, estimated that he arrived at the scene of the crime at about 12:35, but must have been at least half an hour out.

That's one "accepted" truth that I seek to question John, why must Spooner have been wrong with his time? Because Louis said he discovered the body when he arrived back at the club at 1am? Well, Fanny Mortimer claims she was at her door from 12:50 until 1am and she saw no-one approach or arrive. Only Leon Goldstein at 12:55ish.

There are in fact at least 2 other witness that provided times when they were alerted to the body in the passageway, and they agree.. roughly... with Spooners time. Before 12:45.

To use a source that is without corroboration in favour of 3 whose times agree with each other doesn't seem to be the best way to discover any truths.

[John G]

That's one "accepted" truth that I seek to question John, why must Spooner have been wrong with his time? Because Louis said he discovered the body when he arrived back at the club at 1am? Well, Fanny Mortimer claims she was at her door from 12:50 until 1am and she saw no-one approach or arrive. Only Leon Goldstein at 12:55ish.

There are in fact at least 2 other witness that provided times when they were alerted to the body in the passageway, and they agree.. roughly... with Spooners time. Before 12:45.

To use a source that is without corroboration in favour of 3 whose times agree with each other doesn't seem to be the best way to discover any truths.

Hello Michael,

Of course, Spooner estimated his time of arrival by the pub closing times, so clearly only a rough estimate. He also said that the police arrived 4 to 5 minutes after his arrival. Now according to PC Lamb, he had been there about 10 to 12 minutes when Dr Blackwell arrived, who checked his watch on arrival, recording a time of 1:16. This suggests that PC Lamb arrived around 1:04 to 1:06 and Spooner around 12:59 to 1:02.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

Of course, Spooner estimated his time of arrival by the pub closing times, so clearly only a rough estimate. He also said that the police arrived 4 to 5 minutes after his arrival. Now according to PC Lamb, he had been there about 10 to 12 minutes when Dr Blackwell arrived, who checked his watch on arrival, recording a time of 1:16. This suggests that PC Lamb arrived around 1:04 to 1:06 and Spooner around 12:59 to 1:02.

Louis stated that he went for help after he arrived at 1am with Issac(s), after going inside to check on his wife, and after the crowd gathered around the body. So by his account he didn't even leave the yard for help until 1:05ish. Which means he wouldn't meet Spooner until he was on the way back from Grove Street.

There are issues with that story. For one, no-one saw, or heard, Louis arrive at 1am, not even a witness who was at her Berner facing door for 10 minutes.. Issac Kozebrodski says that he was alerted to the body after arriving back at the club at 12:30 and after about 10 minutes had passed...so does Heschberg give an approximate time of 12:45, another club witness. Both corroborate, roughly, Spooner. Issac K also says that he was asked to go for help...by himself...by Louis, before 12:45am. Can you recall anyone but Issac K mentioning this run for help? Are we not told by Louis and Morris that only they went for help? Is it possible that within 1 hour of the bodys discovery that Issac K would be so confused about what he did when the body was found?

I once asked a qualified expert on these cases here why there are so many discrepancies with activities and times on this murder, and he admitted he was stumped too.

For me its perfectly plausible that Louis arrived a fair bit earlier than he stated, and the time spent deciding how to handle the situation takes up the lost minutes.

[John G]

Louis stated that he went for help after he arrived at 1am with Issac(s), after going inside to check on his wife, and after the crowd gathered around the body. So by his account he didn't even leave the yard for help until 1:05ish. Which means he wouldn't meet Spooner until he was on the way back from Grove Street.

There are issues with that story. For one, no-one saw, or heard, Louis arrive at 1am, not even a witness who was at her Berner facing door for 10 minutes.. Issac Kozebrodski says that he was alerted to the body after arriving back at the club at 12:30 and after about 10 minutes had passed...so does Heschberg give an approximate time of 12:45, another club witness. Both corroborate, roughly, Spooner. Issac K also says that he was asked to go for help...by himself...by Louis, before 12:45am. Can you recall anyone but Issac K mentioning this run for help? Are we not told by Louis and Morris that only they went for help? Is it possible that within 1 hour of the bodys discovery that Issac K would be so confused about what he did when the body was found?

I once asked a qualified expert on these cases here why there are so many discrepancies with activities and times on this murder, and he admitted he was stumped too.

For me its perfectly plausible that Louis arrived a fair bit earlier than he stated, and the time spent deciding how to handle the situation takes up the lost minutes.

A statement by Louis is quoted in the Evening News (the emphasis is mine): "One of the members named Isaacs came out with me. We struck a match, and then a horrible sight came before our eyes; we saw a stream of blood flowing right down to the door of the club. We sent to the police without delay, but it was sometime before an officer arrived; in fact we had some difficulty finding one. A man called Eagle, also a member of the club, went to find a policeman; and going in a different direction to what we did, found a couple in Commercial Road."

The inference seems very clear. Eagle headed off in one direction, whereas Louis and Isaacs (presumably Isaac Kozebrodsky) ran for a policeman in another direction (I believe this was towards Fairclough Street)

[Michael W Richards]

A statement by Louis is quoted in the Evening News (the emphasis is mine): "One of the members named Isaacs came out with me. We struck a match, and then a horrible sight came before our eyes; we saw a stream of blood flowing right down to the door of the club. We sent to the police without delay, but it was sometime before an officer arrived; in fact we had some difficulty finding one. A man called Eagle, also a member of the club, went to find a policeman; and going in a different direction to what we did, found a couple in Commercial Road."

The inference seems very clear. Eagle headed off in one direction, whereas Louis and Isaacs (presumably Isaac Kozebrodsky) ran for a policeman in another direction (I believe this was towards Fairclough Street)

As I said, (so why you posted this to contradict me is unclear), we have Louis's remarks that suggest that he and an Issac[s] went one direction and Eagle went another. Well, that is not confirmed by Issac Kozebrodski within 1hour of the murder,... again, as I stated;

"About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."

What this statement suggests is that Issac Kozebrodski believed he was alerted by Louis to the body at about 20 minutes to 1, and that he went out by himself to look for help and met up with Eagle before returning. It also suggests that Louis went out with someone who history records as Issac[s]. That's 3 parties that went out for help, Louis and Issacs, Issac K and Eagle. How many parties do you recall being mentioned formally? Just 2 is the answer.

Another member He(o)schberg said "Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat. I should say she was from 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was found by a man whose name I do not know - a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway, where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctors had been sent for. "

Please note that he believed it was 12:45 when he heard a police whistle alerting him to some issue downstairs. He mimics Louis's tale about what Louis did when he first arrived at the gates, but at a very different time than Louis story stated.

Spooners story puts him in the passageway around 12:40, which fits well with both Issac and Abraham H.

What Issac Kozebrodski does is put into question who this Issac[s] was that accompanied Louis and why didn't we hear from him at all, why Issac K's solo trip for help isn't mentioned by Louis even though Issac claims Louis sent him, and what time it was that Louis actually arrived.

[John G]

As I said, (so why you posted this to contradict me is unclear), we have Louis's remarks that suggest that he and an Issac[s] went one direction and Eagle went another. Well, that is not confirmed by Issac Kozebrodski within 1hour of the murder,... again, as I stated;

"About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."

What this statement suggests is that Issac Kozebrodski believed he was alerted by Louis to the body at about 20 minutes to 1, and that he went out by himself to look for help and met up with Eagle before returning. It also suggests that Louis went out with someone who history records as Issac[s]. That's 3 parties that went out for help, Louis and Issacs, Issac K and Eagle. How many parties do you recall being mentioned formally? Just 2 is the answer.

Another member He(o)schberg said "Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat. I should say she was from 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was found by a man whose name I do not know - a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway, where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctors had been sent for. "

Please note that he believed it was 12:45 when he heard a police whistle alerting him to some issue downstairs. He mimics Louis's tale about what Louis did when he first arrived at the gates, but at a very different time than Louis story stated.

Spooners story puts him in the passageway around 12:40, which fits well with both Issac and Abraham H.

What Issac Kozebrodski does is put into question who this Issac[s] was that accompanied Louis and why didn't we hear from him at all, why Issac K's solo trip for help isn't mentioned by Louis even though Issac claims Louis sent him, and what time it was that Louis actually arrived.

Hello Michael,

Sorry, I obviously misunderstood your earlier post. Regarding timings, both Issac and Heschenberg were clearly only estimating, as indicated to their reference to "about". There is no indication that either witness possessed a watch, or even if they did that it was accurate and that they'd recently referred to it, I.e. to allow for a reasonable time estimate.

I take your point about Issac though. I find it hard to believe that the Isaacs referred to by Louis could have been a different Issac to Isaac K. However, it is interesting that Kozebrodski indicates that he was alone when he went to look for a police officers although Louis doesn't actually say that they set off together so he could have followed shortly afterwards.

It's also odd that Kozebrodski claims that he subsequently went to Commercial Road, where he met Eagle, and found two officers. This is clearly very different to what is suggested by Louis' version of evidents.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

Sorry, I obviously misunderstood your earlier post. Regarding timings, both Issac and Heschenberg were clearly only estimating, as indicated to their reference to "about". There is no indication that either witness possessed a watch, or even if they did that it was accurate and that they'd recently referred to it, I.e. to allow for a reasonable time estimate.

I take your point about Issac though. I find it hard to believe that the Isaacs referred to by Louis could have been a different Issac to Isaac K. However, it is interesting that Kozebrodski indicates that he was alone when he went to look for a police officers although Louis doesn't actually say that they set off together so he could have followed shortly afterwards.

It's also odd that Kozebrodski claims that he subsequently went to Commercial Road, where he met Eagle, and found two officers. This is clearly very different to what is suggested by Louis' version of evidents.

Now your with me.

The thing about Hoschberg and Kozebrodski is that they came from inside the club when they were summoned, I would assume there was a clock they could have referred to there. Issac states he arrived back at "half past 12" which makes me think he marked that by a clock.

I don't see how 3 stories timings coincide so well when they are so markedly contradicted by Louis, and Morris for that matter. If Louis did arrive earlier, then he might have arrived by 12:40 when Eagle says he saw no-one....and he "couldn't be sure" a body was already there.

Ive never been comfortable dismissing stories that are corroborated by one or more witnesses in favour of stories that seem important but were witnessed by only 1 person. 3 people say the body was there at around the same time Israel claims he saw the altercation, and almost 15 minutes before Louis said he arrived.

Fanny Mortimer is critical in this question...we have corroborative evidence that she was at her door at 12:55-56 as she said she was, in the form of Goldstein, and if we can use that confirmation to then assume that when she said she was at her door from 12:50 until 1am continuously she spoke the truth, then we have to believe no cart or horse arrived during that time period. Which leaves us with Louis arriving after 1am, thereby putting all the subsequent actions and arrivals off in timing, or that he arrived before 1am, in fact before 12:50 when Fanny was at her door. Which would put him in the passageway around the same time 3 witnesses said they were there by the body.

If you sift the wheat from the chaff...and the statements from those who had a stake in the club and therefore something to lose if it closed, and those who had no reason to fabricate anything, you get a very different picture.

Louis, Wess, Eagle and Diemshitz all stood to lose money if the club and the location was shut down as a result of suspicions of wrongdoing. The authorities were already eyeing that club suspiciously for reasons unrelated to any murder. And a protest run by these members ends in a brawl with police in that yard within months, resulting in arrests for Louis and Issac.

[Jeff Leahy]

Now your with me.

The thing about Hoschberg and Kozebrodski is that they came from inside the club when they were summoned, I would assume there was a clock they could have referred to there. Issac states he arrived back at "half past 12" which makes me think he marked that by a clock.

I don't see how 3 stories timings coincide so well when they are so markedly contradicted by Louis, and Morris for that matter. If Louis did arrive earlier, then he might have arrived by 12:40 when Eagle says he saw no-one....and he "couldn't be sure" a body was already there.

Ive never been comfortable dismissing stories that are corroborated by one or more witnesses in favour of stories that seem important but were witnessed by only 1 person. 3 people say the body was there at around the same time Israel claims he saw the altercation, and almost 15 minutes before Louis said he arrived.

Fanny Mortimer is critical in this question...we have corroborative evidence that she was at her door at 12:55-56 as she said she was, in the form of Goldstein, and if we can use that confirmation to then assume that when she said she was at her door from 12:50 until 1am continuously she spoke the truth, then we have to believe no cart or horse arrived during that time period. Which leaves us with Louis arriving after 1am, thereby putting all the subsequent actions and arrivals off in timing, or that he arrived before 1am, in fact before 12:50 when Fanny was at her door. Which would put him in the passageway around the same time 3 witnesses said they were there by the body.

If you sift the wheat from the chaff...and the statements from those who had a stake in the club and therefore something to lose if it closed, and those who had no reason to fabricate anything, you get a very different picture.

Louis, Wess, Eagle and Diemshitz all stood to lose money if the club and the location was shut down as a result of suspicions of wrongdoing. The authorities were already eyeing that club suspiciously for reasons unrelated to any murder. And a protest run by these members ends in a brawl with police in that yard within months, resulting in arrests for Louis and Issac.

Merry Xmas Guys

Just skimming this.... but off the top of my head, doesn't Fanny say she here's the horse and Cart pass her door shortly after she goes inside? A little after 1 am

That would confirm Diemschtz timing, and both he and Schwartz would see the clock as they turn from Commercial street into Berner Street?

Yours Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Merry Xmas Guys

Just skimming this.... but off the top of my head, doesn't Fanny say she here's the horse and Cart pass her door shortly after she goes inside? A little after 1 am

That would confirm Diemschtz timing, and both he and Schwartz would see the clock as they turn from Commercial street into Berner Street?

Yours Jeff

You are correct about Fannys statement, but not that it would agree with Diemshitz's. "..... and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner Street". Lets assume that Louis did arrive when Fanny says she heard the cart...(did she hear it coming or going by the way, and do you recall any mention of the cart and horse still being there by the authorities?), which would be a few minutes after 1am. Now, he still has to light the match, go inside to look for his wife, and then back outside to the body, then out the gates for help as far as Grove St, then meet Spooner on the return to the gates.

How is it possible that he arrived after 1am, when Constable Henry Lamb states that shortly before 1am, between Christian and Batty Street, he saw 2 men run up to him crying "theres been another murder". How is it possible when Blackwell says he got the call at 1:10am...that's not even enough time for Louis to do what he says he did IF he actually arrived when Fanny heard the cart?

That suggests that the body was discovered before 1am, and that would agree with Issac K, Heschberg, Spooner and another member named Gillen or Giller. That's a policeman, a bystander, and 3 members stating that they were alerted to a body in the passageway before 1am. Fanny was at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1 and saw no-one, so that would mean the actual discovery, if made by Louis, was made between 12:35 and 12:50.

Which is what Ive been saying all along.

[Jeff Leahy]

You are correct about Fannys statement, but not that it would agree with Diemshitz's. "..... and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner Street". Lets assume that Louis did arrive when Fanny says she heard the cart...(did she hear it coming or going by the way, and do you recall any mention of the cart and horse still being there by the authorities?), which would be a few minutes after 1am. Now, he still has to light the match, go inside to look for his wife, and then back outside to the body, then out the gates for help as far as Grove St, then meet Spooner on the return to the gates.

How is it possible that he arrived after 1am, when Constable Henry Lamb states that shortly before 1am, between Christian and Batty Street, he saw 2 men run up to him crying "theres been another murder". How is it possible when Blackwell says he got the call at 1:10am...that's not even enough time for Louis to do what he says he did IF he actually arrived when Fanny heard the cart?

That suggests that the body was discovered before 1am, and that would agree with Issac K, Heschberg, Spooner and another member named Gillen or Giller. That's a policeman, a bystander, and 3 members stating that they were alerted to a body in the passageway before 1am. Fanny was at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1 and saw no-one, so that would mean the actual discovery, if made by Louis, was made between 12:35 and 12:50.

Which is what Ive been saying all along.

Yeah but Fanny doesn't see or here anything other than the singing from the club and the man with a Black shiny bag, who transpires to be Goldstein.

Its what she does not see which is important

So it suggests she doesn't here people running around shouting murder which she would have done if the body was discovered earlier..

Goldstien passess shortly before 1 am Fanny goes inside, allow 2-3 minutes either way.... Diemschutz takes a minute or so to pass down Berner street perhaps he's turning into Berner Street as Fanny goes inside...

So most probable the body is discovered shortly after 1 am

I'm not certain why the horse and cart isn't mentioned, but the horse was clearly spooked so was probably taken into the yard further down where it must have had stabling? Its not something I've heard discussed before

Yours Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jeff,

Some responses below;

Yeah but Fanny doesn't see or here anything other than the singing from the club and the man with a Black shiny bag, who transpires to be Goldstein.

Which proves without a doubt that at 12:55 am Fanny Mortimer was where she said she was. Validation.

Its what she does not see which is important

I agree. She does not see or hear Louis from 10 minutes to 1 until just after 1, she doesn't see or hear Israel and she doesn't see or hear Morris arriving back at the club.

So it suggests she doesn't here people running around shouting murder which she would have done if the body was discovered earlier..

The shouts were made when the members actually went out for help, which I contend started with Issac K around 12:45. Again, 5 people stated they were alerted to the body before 12:45, the policeman stated before 1am.

Goldstien passess shortly before 1 am Fanny goes inside, allow 2-3 minutes either way.... Diemschutz takes a minute or so to pass down Berner street perhaps he's turning into Berner Street as Fanny goes inside...

Goldstein passes at 12:55-56 by Fannys statement, which means that for 5-6 minutes prior, and for 4 minutes afterward, she is still at her door.

So most probable the body is discovered shortly after 1 am

5 people say that time is wrong, and just 1, Louis, says it was at 1.

I'm not certain why the horse and cart isn't mentioned, but the horse was clearly spooked so was probably taken into the yard further down where it must have had stabling? Its not something I've heard discussed before

The horse and cart would have been a hindrance to the investigation, and was to be stabled in George Yard, but nowhere is a mention that they requested it moved further into the yard, or just away from the gates. I believe its possible Fanny heard the cart and horse being taken away, not arriving. Another issue.....what happened to the goods Louis came to 40 Berner to offload before going to the stables.? When were they offloaded? were there any goods?

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

The horse and cart would have been a hindrance to the investigation, and was to be stabled in George Yard, but nowhere is a mention that they requested it moved further into the yard, or just away from the gates. I believe its possible Fanny heard the cart and horse being taken away, not arriving. Another issue.....what happened to the goods Louis came to 40 Berner to offload before going to the stables.? When were they offloaded? were there any goods?

Hi Michael

Obviously I'm in disagreement with you re-the timings but I can't see much to gain be simply disagreeing about interpretation of timings, on which we largely appear in agreement...though Goldstein doesn't specify a time simply 'shortly before one O'clock' the timing 12.56 is a modern estimate.

However the above comment intrigues me. As I've said I've never come across a discussion on ripper boards on this subject. My assumption had always been that Dutfield yard contained its own stabling, so the horse would have been taken into Outfield Yard unharnessed and put to bed so to speak.

I would doubt that the police would have given orders. Surely the concern over the animals welfare (It being valuable) would have come first?

I'm wondering if anyone else has ever come across theories as to what happened to the horse and cart?

Clearly if the animal was stabled else ware, as you suggest, then Fanny might have heard the horse leaving, it just seems unlikely to me that if she was stood at her door listening to singing, that a) people were still singing happily and B) that some kind of commosion would not have been heard..

But if anyone has anything to add about the Horse and Cart I'd personally be most interested in any information

Many thanks

Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

The Goad insurance map 1890 shows there were two stables in the yard;

http://britishlibrary.georeferencer.com/map/yjj59GgqaXIj8paEHPF2GM/201312091325-ahV4iU/visualize

[Michael W Richards]

The Goad insurance map 1890 shows there were two stables in the yard;

http://britishlibrary.georeferencer....V4iU/visualize

Indeed there were, but they were unused since the previous owner moved his establishment. The stables there were checked that night, and there was an office on a second level that had a lock that had been broken.

Louis stabled his cart and horse in George Yard...yet another connection to that spot....and that's why I am so curious about where they were when the police arrived. If Fanny heard the cart and horse leaving, and during the time she was only sporadically at her door, from 12:30 until 12:50, the cart and horse arrived while she was indoors, then it would support the hypothesis that the discovery took place earlier than represented, and was therefore in keeping with the timing given in 5 witness statements.

I began to wonder last night, what if the discovery wasn't made by Louis, and that he did arrive when he said he did, but when he arrived people were already around the body. What if Eagle, who claimed he "couldn't be sure" a body was there when he passed....also unseen or heard by anyone.....actually could have been more decisive.

A side question.

Cheers and Happy New Year folks.

[Jeff Leahy]

Many thanks for this information...

I also had in the back of my mind there were stables and had assumed the horse and cart were stabled here...

Do you have a reference to source for the George Yard stabling?

Someone jokingly suggested Deimsutz dumped the body...its not such a daft theory if the Horse and Cart weren't going home for the night as was suggested

Why would Deinsutz return from Market and not take the horse back to stable?

Thank you both

Jeff