Schwartz v. Lawende

[Fleetwood Mac]

Its interesting but in the realms of fantasy

But so is Star Trek and we all enjoy that also?

But perhaps staying closer to the FACTS might be more illuminating?

Yours Jeff

No idea what you mean. You could explain though?

[Jeff Leahy]

No idea what you mean. You could explain though?

I simnply refer you back to this statement: My hunch is that neither Lawende nor Schwartz saw the killer, but PC Smith did.

Clearly everything... The timing of events, the known witness movments, Blackwells estimate and the credibility of the witnesses, particularly Lawende, suggest otherwise..

All these factors suggest almost certainly both Schwartz and Lawende witnessed the killer who was far from an expert at concealing his identity? or indeed cared?

Yours Jeff

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

Since we have no evidence as to why Schwartz did not appear at the testimony we can reach no conclusion as to why he did not. We can only speculate. Therefore, concluding that it absolutely had to be because the police did not believe his story, is not justified in any way, shape or form. It is not an established fact.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Or it might totally substantiate it, depending on what they said when they did come forward. I suppose that if it was a domestic squabble, there's not a great deal of wonder that no-one came forward.

I recognise I should know this kind of thing, but is there the chance that whilst BSM, Pipe dude (I know that's not his real name or usual moniker!), Schwartz and the woman were all doing their things, Stride actually already lay dead, or was already in the yard? I assume not because I seem to remember something about her basically dying when she'd been found...?

Hello Syrius,

First of all welcome to the boards.

Stride's body was not found where Schwartz said he saw her being thrown to the ground. Also, since Swanson allows for the possibility of her killer arriving after the B.S. man left the scene, it could only be because Schwartz was questioned closely on this point and was clear that Stride was alive when Schwartz fled.

c.d.

[Pcdunn]

What if they just couldn't locate Schwartz?

Hello Michael,

Since we have no evidence as to why Schwartz did not appear at the testimony we can reach no conclusion as to why he did not. We can only speculate. Therefore, concluding that it absolutely had to be because the police did not believe his story, is not justified in any way, shape or form. It is not an established fact.

c.d.

I agree. It occurred to me recently that maybe Schwartz simply disappeared before the inquest finished. Not speaking English, and being suspicious of the police, he might be disinclined to get involved further. So he didn't show up at the inquest, hence didn't testify.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I simnply refer you back to this statement: My hunch is that neither Lawende nor Schwartz saw the killer, but PC Smith did.

Clearly everything... The timing of events, the known witness movments, Blackwells estimate and the credibility of the witnesses, particularly Lawende, suggest otherwise..

All these factors suggest almost certainly both Schwartz and Lawende witnessed the killer who was far from an expert at concealing his identity? or indeed cared?

Yours Jeff

If you honestly think that "it is almost certain that both Schwartz and Lawende witnessed the killer", then your powers of deduction are all over the shop, mate.

There are so many variables in this it is demanded not mere suggested that it is far from certain that either of them saw the killer.

The facts are as follows:

Schwartz was not called to the inquest, nor did anyone else witness Schwartz's event, despite people milling about and Schwartz seeing a supposed physical spat and a chase.

Lawende identifies Eddowes by her height and clothes. Hardly conclusive. 10 minutes before estimated time of death near the spot.

PC Smith sees Stride 10 minutes before the estimated time of death near the spot. That's a pretty good witness in anyone's book.

My conclusion is as follows:

PC Smith is under-rated in terms of witnesses who may have seen Jack of the Ripper.

I would have thought that much is obvious.

[Abby Normal]

If you honestly think that "it is almost certain that both Schwartz and Lawende witnessed the killer", then your powers of deduction are all over the shop, mate.

There are so many variables in this it is demanded not mere suggested that it is far from certain that either of them saw the killer.

The facts are as follows:

Schwartz was not called to the inquest, nor did anyone else witness Schwartz's event, despite people milling about and Schwartz seeing a supposed physical spat and a chase.

Lawende identifies Eddowes by her height and clothes. Hardly conclusive. 10 minutes before estimated time of death near the spot.

PC Smith sees Stride 10 minutes before the estimated time of death near the spot. That's a pretty good witness in anyone's book.

My conclusion is as follows:

PC Smith is under-rated in terms of witnesses who may have seen Jack of the Ripper.

I would have thought that much is obvious.

I think the most obvious explanation is that they all saw him.

[Paddy]

Lipski

I wondered if the person Schwartz saw could have been shouting "Dont be so nosey"
If you look on google translation and translate Nosey to Polish you can also hear the word, that sounds quite like Lipski?
JUst a thought
Pat......

[Paddy]

Lipski

I wondered if the person Schwartz saw could have been shouting "Dont be so nosey"
If you look on google translation and translate Nosey to Polish you can also hear the word, that sounds quite like Lipski?
JUst a thought
Pat......

[Jeff Leahy]

If you honestly think that "it is almost certain that both Schwartz and Lawende witnessed the killer", then your powers of deduction are all over the shop, mate.

when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?

There are so many variables in this it is demanded not mere suggested that it is far from certain that either of them saw the killer.

Its possible neither of them saw the killer. It just seems unlikely.

Schwartz was not called to the inquest, nor did anyone else witness Schwartz's event, despite people milling about and Schwartz seeing a supposed physical spat and a chase.

Schwartz was clearly believed by the police. The Home Office report by Swanson seems to support this.

Its pricicely because no one else witnessed Schwartz estimate of entering Berner Street at 12.45 that his statement is credible. It is thus supported by Moris eagle 12.40, Brown 12.45, Mortimer 10 minutes supported by Eagle shortly before 1 am... Blackwell's estimated time of death 12.50

So the only possible time frame for what Schwartz says is when he says.

Lawende identifies Eddowes by her height and clothes. Hardly conclusive. 10 minutes before estimated time of death near the spot.

Its fairly conclusive unless you think there were hundreds of woman walking about at 1,30 in the morning wearing the same clothes. Besides they were seen by three people and Lawende was clearly thought of as the best witness.

PC Smith sees Stride 10 minutes before the estimated time of death near the spot. That's a pretty good witness in anyone's book.

Agreed

PC Smith is under-rated in terms of witnesses who may have seen Jack of the Ripper. I would have thought that much is obvious.

I've never been totally convinced PC Smith didn't see the same man as Schwartz... The only real problem is the hat description and schwartz POV was largely of BSM's rear

Yours Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

To correct an erroneous premise, Israel Schwartz's story was supported within internal memos... which translates into basically nothing in terms of validation for his story. The validation would have been if Israel Schwartz was the witness who spoke about sightings at the time of 12:45 at the Inquest, or if he had submitted a written deposition to the Inquest, or if his story was presented by an officer due to protection of the witness or statement suppression issues, or if we are informed that his story in any form was presented for consideration.

The facts are the James Brown was the witness for 12:45, and Israel disappears from the records, as does his perceived relevance.

There is zero possibility that his story wouldn't have had great impact on the question at hand at the Inquest, and there is no indication anywhere that his story was partially or fully suppressed. It was simply left out.

I believe the witnesses that stated they did see something and were substantiated by other witnesses..like Fanny and Goldstein for example, or Fanny and Brown and the "young couple" have some credibility in the fact that they have second source validation. For example we know that Fanny was definitely at her door at 12:55-56.. just as she said she was , because she saw Goldstein, who on the Tuesday night, stated he was the black bag man. The witnesses that made claims that cannot be substantiated by any other source...like Louis and his arrival time, Eagles return at 12:40, Israels skirmish and flight, ...are not the ones to bank on.

[Jeff Leahy]

The facts are the James Brown was the witness for 12:45, and Israel disappears from the records, as does his perceived relevance.
.

As I've pointed out on several occasions now there is nothing contradictory about Brown and Schwartz Statement once you understand the geography.

Thats because the shop Brown leaves is on the cross roads of Berner Street and Fairclough Street. If his eyes are on Stride as he leaves the shop he only has a view of schwartz entering Berner Street for about 2 or 3 seconds and thats only if he looks direct towards Commercial Road down Berner Street... When he passes Stride and the Man 'not tonight some other night' his back is to everything as he heads home along Fairclough Street...So Browns POV is minimal

It also leaves time for Stride to turn and cross at the junction and walk to Dutfirld yard and intercept BSM walking down Berner Street from Commercial Road....

If the man seen by Brown takes out his pipe for a condor moment it also leaves a man that might fit pipe mans descriptor 90 degree around the corner of the Board school unseen by Schwartz or BSM who's trajectory is down Berner Street.

So 12.45 is a time that its quite possible for both men to have happened as they claim especially if you allow a few seconds either way

A perfect fit...whats the odds on that? baring in mind neither knew the others story

Yours Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

As I've pointed out on several occasions now there is nothing contradictory about Brown and Schwartz Statement once you understand the geography.

Thats because the shop Brown leaves is on the cross roads of Berner Street and Fairclough Street. If his eyes are on Stride as he leaves the shop he only has a view of schwartz entering Berner Street for about 2 or 3 seconds and thats only if he looks direct towards Commercial Road down Berner Street... When he passes Stride and the Man 'not tonight some other night' his back is to everything as he heads home along Fairclough Street...So Browns POV is minimal

It also leaves time for Stride to turn and cross at the junction and walk to Dutfirld yard and intercept BSM walking down Berner Street from Commercial Road....

If the man seen by Brown takes out his pipe for a condor moment it also leaves a man that might fit pipe mans descriptor 90 degree around the corner of the Board school unseen by Schwartz or BSM who's trajectory is down Berner Street.

So 12.45 is a time that its quite possible for both men to have happened as they claim especially if you allow a few seconds either way

A perfect fit...whats the odds on that? baring in mind neither knew the others story

Yours Jeff

And I suppose that Stride adds her corsage after Brown sees her? The time needed from Stride to get from A(Brown) to B(BSM) isn't the issue, nor is Browns POV. The issue is whether there is any evidence beside anecdotal that the Police supported Israels story. There is no evidence of that aside from the anecdotal mention.

Let me ask you this.....IF they believed Schwartz, and if he was used as a viable witness despite his absence from the Inquest, then why can no one answer where Israel was moving from on that day? You would think their support would be based on verification of him, and his story characters, yet no-one knows where Israel supposedly moved from that day. Since he was, according to him only, outside the gates that night, perhaps he lived in one of the cottages in the passageway, which would prejudice what information he was giving.

Israel knew Wess. Israel was the exact same profile as almost everyone that attended that meeting that night. Israel was claiming that he was checking to see if his wife had moved completely over the 12 hours he had been gone, when we can safely assume all she moved was clothing and perhaps a stick of furniture, which would take less than a few hours. Somethings which must cast doubt upon his veracity.

If Israel was actually that important and trustworthy, why do we know so little about him?

[c.d.]

"There is zero possibility that his story wouldn't have had great impact on the question at hand at the Inquest, and there is no indication anywhere that his story was partially or fully suppressed. It was simply left out."

Hello Michael,

It was an Inquest not a Trial. No one was going to hang as a result of Schwartz's absence nor was anyone who deserved it going to escape the hangman's noose because Schwartz did not testify.

It is extremely unlikely that the jurors at the inquest would conclude that Stride committed suicide or that she died as the result of an accident.

The bottom line is that with or without Schwartz the jury was still going to return the person or persons unknown conclusion.

If the police had a great deal of trouble sorting out Schwartz's story due to the translation problem and the fact that he himself was apparently not clear on just what he saw the same could be expected at the Inquest.

c.d.

[Hunter]

Good grief