Schwartz v. Lawende

[Robert St Devil]

Hello John g.
The best evidence i could find to build a case for strangulation was: the ecchymosis reported around the neck, the nevkerchiefs, the blood clots in the heart. Still digging tho.

[John G]

Thanks JohnG

How do think her scarf got pulled so tight then, if it wasn't done by her attacker?

Hi Abby,

I'll have to ponder on that! Could it simply be that was how Stride wore the scarf? Or does that seem to implausible?

[John G]

OK so In this scenario, BS man is a lie, Schwartz was never there, she willingly goes into the yard with another unknown, unwitnessed man for prostitution sex, turns her back to him and that's when the attack occurs?

Hello Abby,

I think she was murdered by PC Smith's suspect. In fact, based upon a revised, and more plausible, timeline for his beat, I don't think there was time for it to have been anyone else.

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks JohnG

How do think her scarf got pulled so tight then, if it wasn't done by her attacker?

I'm not sure we can say the scarf was tied tightly round her neck, Abby, although that seems an obvious way for the attacker to gain control. Blackwell's testimony reads to me that it's the bow that was tied tight, rather than the loop around Liz's neck.

"The deceased had round her neck a check silk scarf, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight."

We don't even know what pattern was on the scarf, other witnesses say it was striped.

[Jeff Leahy]

Is William Bakdock still alive? When Seabrook interviewed him he was 89 and living in Finchley.

He was still alive and probably the source for Seabrooks Cushy theory..

Both Baldock and Seabrooke are no longer with us but I believe the poor Cushy is alive and well and living in North London

There was a lot of corruption in the police at this time, I believe that presure was put on Mungos wife (Who was a Maltise prostitutes maid) to keep stump by a policeman called John Burrows who did a bunk to Australia.

Yours Jeff

[John G]

I personally think it more probable Schwartz witnesses Strides murder but doesn't realise it...

His POV is after all at 180 when BSM turns and shouts Lipski so whether he is on the pavement or slightly inside the yard is a difficult to determine

Yours jef

So at what point does he pull her arm behind her back and tightened the scarf? How does he get her into the Yard, i.e. to the place where her body was found?

[John G]

He was still alive and probably the source for Seabrooks Cushy theory..

Both Baldock and Seabrooke are no longer with us but I believe the poor Cushy is alive and well and living in North London

There was a lot of corruption in the police at this time, I believe that presure was put on Mungos wife (Who was a Maltise prostitutes maid) to keep stump by a policeman called John Burrows who did a bunk to Australia.

Yours Jeff

Thanks for this Jeff. Yes, I had heard that Seabrook had died.

[John G]

Hi John

On the subject of strangulation I had an interesting conversation a while ago about its use in bizarre sexual practice. The person using a ligature to cut the blood supply to the brain to induce heightened orgasm..

I think this is what INXS Hutchinson was trying to do when he killed himself..

The conversation turned to Harold Jones homosexual practices in Maidstone prison and whether he might have learned or used such practices, hence learning the right amount of pressure to knock out a victim without killing them...

I'm not suggesting Jack the Ripper knew about such practice but possibly created a similar effect pulling Stride back by her scarf while pushing the other arm up behind her.... He the walked forward into the yard lowering her unconscious body gently as he did so...still holding the scarf he cuts the throat with the now free hand..

Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff,

I still think there is insufficient evidence of Stride being strangled/choked. Of course, Schwartz states that she was thrown to the ground and that she then screamed, so she couldn't have been unconscious at this time. Are you suggesting that BS man subsequently pulled her up and forced her into the Yard, rendering her unconscious whilst doing so?

[Jeff Leahy]

So at what point does he pull her arm behind her back and tightened the scarf? How does he get her into the Yard, i.e. to the place where her body was found?

For my money Stride passes out when 'she screams tree times but not very loudly' I think this is a poor translation of someone trying to describe someone cloaking as screaming quietly is a contradiction in terms...

I think Stride turned on BSM, her only route of escape back into the yard...he grabbed her scarf pulling her arm up tight..

As schwartz crosses the road BSM lowers the fainted womans body moving into the yard two or three paces dropping the woman he turns and shouts 'Lipski'

Schwartz runs...BSM pulls again on the scarf cut her throat in one movement

Schwartz doesn't get a good view of the suspect because he is in the dark, he only see his rear...

Thus schwartz fails to ID the suspect who is let go..

Yours Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I'll have to ponder on that! Could it simply be that was how Stride wore the scarf? Or does that seem to implausible?

well according to Joshs last post it might have just been the bow of the scarf that was pulled tight and not necessarily the scarf itself about her neck.

so who knows????

personally,I don't think anyone would just mention a bow being pulled tight-whats the relevance? to me it seems it was mentioned because the scarf was tight itself around the neck-which would have obvious relevance.

[Abby Normal]

For my money Stride passes out when 'she screams tree times but not very loudly' I think this is a poor translation of someone trying to describe someone cloaking as screaming quietly is a contradiction in terms...

I think Stride turned on BSM, her only route of escape back into the yard...he grabbed her scarf pulling her arm up tight..

As schwartz crosses the road BSM lowers the fainted womans body moving into the yard two or three paces dropping the woman he turns and shouts 'Lipski'

Schwartz runs...BSM pulls again on the scarf cut her throat in one movement

Schwartz doesn't get a good view of the suspect because he is in the dark, he only see his rear...

Thus schwartz fails to ID the suspect who is let go..

Yours Jeff

well I agree with you that BS man was probably her attacker and a good possibility that Schwartz witnessed the murder, but just didn't know what he was seeing.

I think Schwartz as the Anderson witness is a possibility, I just lean towrd Lawende.

But it seems to me that we both agree that stride held onto the cashoo, by whatever means, through the BS man attack and murder.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

I think she was murdered by PC Smith's suspect. In fact, based upon a revised, and more plausible, timeline for his beat, I don't think there was time for it to have been anyone else.

fair enough JohnG
But I think PC smiths suspect WAS BS man, and folks are just off a bit on timings and descriptions.

[Jeff Leahy]

well I agree with you that BS man was probably her attacker and a good possibility that Schwartz witnessed the murder, but just didn't know what he was seeing.

I think Schwartz as the Anderson witness is a possibility, I just lean towrd Lawende..

The question i keep coming back to... is if Kozminski came to police attention early on... and I think thats probable for a number of reasons... why didn't they use Schwartz and Lawende then? I mean why wait two years?

And if Kozminski was the man with Black curly hair followed by Cox....why did they let him go if they had a positive ID

None of it makes sense to me?

Yours Jeff

[John G]

For my money Stride passes out when 'she screams tree times but not very loudly' I think this is a poor translation of someone trying to describe someone cloaking as screaming quietly is a contradiction in terms...

I think Stride turned on BSM, her only route of escape back into the yard...he grabbed her scarf pulling her arm up tight..

As schwartz crosses the road BSM lowers the fainted womans body moving into the yard two or three paces dropping the woman he turns and shouts 'Lipski'

Schwartz runs...BSM pulls again on the scarf cut her throat in one movement

Schwartz doesn't get a good view of the suspect because he is in the dark, he only see his rear...

Thus schwartz fails to ID the suspect who is let go..

Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff,

Well, it's certainly a very creative explanation! The difficulty is, to make Schwartz's evidence make sense you have to completely 're-write it. Personally, I can't see how he was mistaken about Stride being thrown to the ground, and we're told that he "got as far as the gateway" so he must have been very close to the action. In fact, what you seem to be describing is a highly dynamic struggle, with BS man trying to get Stride into the street, Stride resisting, turning on BS Man, Stride running into the Yard, BS man grabbing the scarf and pulling her arm behind her back, rendering her unconscious, BS man moving with Stride into the Yard-where presumably he would be out of sight of Schwartz (which Schwartz doesn't mention), and lowering the body...Phew!

I can't see Schwartz missing all of this particularly as we can't assume that he remained in a stationary position himself. I agree with you about screaming not very loudly being a contradiction, but I still don't think anyone would misinterpret a scream for someone choking-the sounds are radically different. More likely Schwartz realised his mistake , i.e. because the question was raised as to why no one else heard the screams, and corrected himself.

[John G]

well according to Joshs last post it might have just been the bow of the scarf that was pulled tight and not necessarily the scarf itself about her neck.

so who knows????

personally,I don't think anyone would just mention a bow being pulled tight-whats the relevance? to me it seems it was mentioned because the scarf was tight itself around the neck-which would have obvious relevance.

Hi Abby,

I agree. It's a little bit frustrating. And if the killer did pull the scarf tight, when did this happen?