Schwartz v. Lawende

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom
Maybe he does, but just didn't name him. see my sig below.

Hi Abby, thanks for that. What's the source of the Abberline quote?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby, thanks for that. What's the source of the Abberline quote?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Abberlines interview with the Pall mall gazette I Beleive where he's talking about his theory on chapman.

[S.Brett]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your answer.

but what Packer said was they were standing in the rain for 15 minutes and he even remarked to his wife about them standing in the rain. And he said she was eating grapes.

Evening News, 4 October 1888;

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881004.html

Le Grand/Batchelor... Mathew Packer had valuable information to give, and after two or three interviews on the subject, made and signed a statement in writing, the substance of which is as follows:

On the 29th ult., about 11.45 p.m., a man and woman came to his shop window, and asked for some fruit... The man asked his companion whether she would have black or white grapes; she replied "black."... He observed to his wife, "What fools those people are to be standing in the rain like that."... At last the couple moved from their position, and Packer saw them cross the road again and come over to the club, standing for a moment in front of it as though listening to the music inside. Then he lost sight of them. It was then ten or fifteen minutes past twelve o'clock, Packer, who was about to close his shop, noting the time by the fact that the public houses had been closed... "Some time between half past eleven and twelve a man and woman came up Berner street from the direction of Ellen street... "Did you notice the woman so that you would know her again?"..."Yes. I saw that she was dressed in dark clothes, looked a middle aged woman, and carried a white flower in her hand. I saw that as plain as anything could be, and I am sure I should know the woman again. I was taken today to the see the dead body of a woman lying in Golden land mortuary, but I can swear that wasn't the woman that stood at my shop window on Saturday night." Then he turned to the woman and said, 'Which will you have, my dear, black or white? You shall have whichever you like best.'"..."The woman said, 'Oh, then I'll have the black 'uns, 'cos they look the nicest.'"..."'Give us half a pound of the black ones, then,' said the man. I put the grapes in a paper bag and handed them to him." "First of all, they stood near the gateway leading into the club for a minute or two, and then they crossed the road and stood right opposite."..."For how long?"..."More than half an hour, I should say; so long that I said to my missus, 'Why, them people must be a couple o' fools to stand out there in the rain eating grapes they bought here, when they might just as well have had shelter! In fact, sir, me and my missus left 'em standing there when we went to bed."..."And what time was that?"..."I couldn't say exactly, but it must have been past midnight a little bit, for the public houses was shut up."...This afternoon Matthew Packer, the fruiterer, of 44 Berner street, referred to in the above narrative, visited the mortuary of St. George's in the East, and identified the body of Elizabeth Stride as that of the woman for whom the grapes were purchased on the night of the murder...

Then he says he was beat up and spent three weeks at London Hospital, but the LH register puts the lie to that.

Packer: He claimed to have been attacked on his doorstep by somebody who mentioned the Ripper, spending three weeks at the London Hospital as a result.

Can you name the source?

At the moment I am only aware of this:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=12453

That is my point:

It seems that Packer recognized Stride in the mortuary of St. George's in the East. It might be true that he had seen Stride on the night of the Double Event and it might be the true that he had often seen... the woman... before the murder... should not be surprsing, she was a prostitute and perhaps this area had been her place (one of her places)... of course, I am not sure, but it seems to me that there was no rain at the time Packer claimed... it is possible that he had seen the couple after the heavy rain when it rained very little or not at all.

Eating grapes, as I already stated, is possible but what if she had spat out the seeds and skins?

The other thing is:

What if he had also seen "Kosminski" on that night (and later in Greenfield Street)? It should not be surprising that he had often seen the man before the murder, if this "Kosminski" is Aaron Kozminski, Packer´s shop was on his way from Greenfield Street (sister Matilda/brother Isaac) to Providence Street (brother Woolf). Packer could have seen "Kosminski" a lot of days.

What I want to say is:

Clothes, not wet with rain and no grapes in her stomach and no Packer in the London Hospital = Packer is a liar... I do not know... even though you are probably right... but Game over for Packer? Definitively?

The grapes- ok, I can very easily understand your conclusion!
Wet clothes- there was a heavy rain... but after 11.00pm? Little rain-no rain?
London Hospital- The source?

Now I am really excited about your book (books).

Yours, Karsten.

[S.Brett]

Or it was intended to read 'City Police Witness' (i.e. Lawende).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Of course, Tom, cannot be ruled out...

[John G]

Hi John. Yes, good eye there. And Abberline did accept Stride as a Ripper victim. I also agree to some extent about PC William Smith, although I did not see where you posted about it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Thanks for reply. The PC Smith post was Post 400-it took me a while to find it! Essentially his time estimate for seeing Stride with the suspect appears to have been based on the false premise that he returned to Berner Street at 1:00am.

Thus, at the inquest he stated, "My beat was past Berner Street, and would take me twenty-five minutes or half an hour to go round. I was in Berner Street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial Road corner of Berner Sreet again at one o'clock."

However, it couldn't have been one o'clock, because Louis didn't even find Stride's body until that time, and he clearly didn't witness the commotion or Eagle et al. raising the alarm and rushing for a police officer.

Moreover, PC Lamb was already in situ when he arrived at the murder scene, and according to his inquest evidence his arrival was 10-12 minutes before Dr Blackwell, so around 1:05.

PC Smith also told the inquest what he did after his arrival, "I saw that the woman was dead, and I went to the police station for an ambulance, leaving the other constables in charge of the body. Dr Blackwell's assistant arrived just as I was going away."

Of course, Edward Johnston stated that he was at the murder scene about three to four minutes before Dr Blackwell, so about 1:12-1:13. PC Smith, from his evidence, appears to have left for the ambulance, passing Johnston on the way out, after briefly checking the status of the victim. I therefore think it reasonable to conclude that his arrival was about 1:10, and not around 1:00am as he'd thought.

That means, that he previously arrived in Berner Street at about 12:40-12:45, not as he'd thought, 12:30-12:35. This also gels with Mortimer's evidence, as she appears to have gone to her door at around 12:46 [she said she remained at the door step for about 10 minutes, so about 12:46-12:56, going back inside after seeeing Goldstein pass by, and around 4 minutes before hearing the approach of Louis' pony and cart] just after hearing the measured heavy tread of a police officer passing by.

By the way, like Karsten I am also looking forward to your new book. Any idea when it is likely to be published?

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,
However, you and Karsten seem to be arguing in favour of a third witness. Who do you think that may have been? And why was that witness not used to identity Sadler and Grainger?

Hi John

Scientists have recently predicted the exists of a ninth planet. Knowone has actually seen it or photographed it as yet, but they are predicting its there because of the behaviour of objects around the area.

For sometime we've been looking at what Anderson and MacNaughten say and trying to make sense of it...

And the conclusion is that they are both talking about two separate events at least two years apart. MacNaughten starts his memo in 1894, based on his own investigation before joining the police, he favours Druit. But while writing the memo comes across the file put together by Cox unto March 1889. It details events about a suspect they could not prove was Jack the Ripper but they strongly suspected until he was place in an asylum (A private Asylum in Surrey) Thus NacNaughten dismisses Kozminski in favour of Druit.

Anderson, who doesnt have a clue in August 1889, changes his mind at some point in 1890, presumably sparked by the Crawford letter and a meeting with Matilda, he falls out with Monroe how the family should be handled. The family have become frightened by Kozminski's continued deterioration. (Schizophrenia explaining why the murders stop not why they start, kozminski being fully functional in 1888)

I believe that sometime following August 1889 a third witness linked to Millers Court (As that would fit what Cox says) is tracked down, possible following enquiries in the anniversary of events. Kirsten has suggested someone entering Millers Court as the suspect left Kelly's room.

This ID happens in secret at an asylum convelesent seaside home, Swanson fixing Anderson's problems and keeping it quiet.... The original file not being updated as its a separate event relating to the same suspect.

The ID goes wrong and the problem is solved by Kozminski being taken to Colney Hatch. Following his transfer to Leavesdon Anderson either creates the tale that he died to protect the family from what he says or is miss informed by the Asylum...

The witness is not used again as he gives a positive ID and refuses to testify wasting everyones time..

Rumours circulate around the police department of a man placed in an asylum who died shortly afterwards, MacNAughten is not convinced from what he has read because it doesn't include the info on Colney Hatch ID 1891 (MAcNaughten hasn't a clue what happened to Kozminski he only holds beliefs based on Cox's file)..

MacNaughten keeps the file (Which is why it is missing) and over a period of years gives more details to Simms and Griffis, but no new information following March 1889..

Anderson whats to change police procedure which is why he talks about his suspect but won't reveal the name as he gave his word to a lady he would not and swanson takes the secret to his grave not thinking anyone will ever discover his Marginal notes or make sense of them

Thus I think it improbable if Kozminski was the man followed by Cox, that Schwartz or Lawende were the seaside Home witness

Trust that clarify's

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

body position

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Now, if only we start looking to body position.

Cheers.
LC

[S.Brett]

... a third witness linked to Millers Court... Kirsten has suggested someone entering Millers Court as the suspect left Kelly's room.

It is probably a little bit crazy... but there were some Jewish men (Schwartz, Goldstein, Diemschütz, maybe BS Man?, Lawende, Levy, Harris) and why not another Jewish man? It seems to me that Schwartz and Lawende could have been used End of 1888/Beginning of 1889 if "Kosminski" had already been a "prime suspect" ("many circs") at that time (would be possible). If Cox and/or Sagar (City Police) were watching Kosminski at that time, I guess that the police would have arranged an ID with "Kosminski", Schwartz and Lawende. Schwartz was a MET Police witness but I cannot imagine that the he was not used until the second half of 1890.

However:

Were Cox & colleagues (and Sagar) watching "Kosminski"? I dunno!
Is the Seaside Home witness from the Miller´s Court? I dunno!
Schwartz or Lawende? I dunno!
The Seaside Home Identification, at which date? I dunno!
Packer a liar? I dunno!
Packer did (not) see Stride and/or "Kosminski"? I dunno!
...
...
...

It seems we have some witnesses with different information from different sources (including Schwartz and Lawende) and particularly "The Berner Street Mystery" is a real challenge. But we have Tom Wescott (Debra Arif is helpful, Tom?) and I can well imagine he will be solving some of the problems. I put my trust in him...

I have to admit that my experience of life tells me that the most of the (so-called) liars spoke the truth. I do not believe that Packer was "the best witness", I am far from it, but Stride was found murdered next to his door and Woolf Abrahams lived around the corner... and moved away after the murder... we will have to wait and see...

[John G]

Hi John

Scientists have recently predicted the exists of a ninth planet. Knowone has actually seen it or photographed it as yet, but they are predicting its there because of the behaviour of objects around the area.

For sometime we've been looking at what Anderson and MacNaughten say and trying to make sense of it...

And the conclusion is that they are both talking about two separate events at least two years apart. MacNaughten starts his memo in 1894, based on his own investigation before joining the police, he favours Druit. But while writing the memo comes across the file put together by Cox unto March 1889. It details events about a suspect they could not prove was Jack the Ripper but they strongly suspected until he was place in an asylum (A private Asylum in Surrey) Thus NacNaughten dismisses Kozminski in favour of Druit.

Anderson, who doesnt have a clue in August 1889, changes his mind at some point in 1890, presumably sparked by the Crawford letter and a meeting with Matilda, he falls out with Monroe how the family should be handled. The family have become frightened by Kozminski's continued deterioration. (Schizophrenia explaining why the murders stop not why they start, kozminski being fully functional in 1888)

I believe that sometime following August 1889 a third witness linked to Millers Court (As that would fit what Cox says) is tracked down, possible following enquiries in the anniversary of events. Kirsten has suggested someone entering Millers Court as the suspect left Kelly's room.

This ID happens in secret at an asylum convelesent seaside home, Swanson fixing Anderson's problems and keeping it quiet.... The original file not being updated as its a separate event relating to the same suspect.

The ID goes wrong and the problem is solved by Kozminski being taken to Colney Hatch. Following his transfer to Leavesdon Anderson either creates the tale that he died to protect the family from what he says or is miss informed by the Asylum...

The witness is not used again as he gives a positive ID and refuses to testify wasting everyones time..

Rumours circulate around the police department of a man placed in an asylum who died shortly afterwards, MacNAughten is not convinced from what he has read because it doesn't include the info on Colney Hatch ID 1891 (MAcNaughten hasn't a clue what happened to Kozminski he only holds beliefs based on Cox's file)..

MacNaughten keeps the file (Which is why it is missing) and over a period of years gives more details to Simms and Griffis, but no new information following March 1889..

Anderson whats to change police procedure which is why he talks about his suspect but won't reveal the name as he gave his word to a lady he would not and swanson takes the secret to his grave not thinking anyone will ever discover his Marginal notes or make sense of them

Thus I think it improbable if Kozminski was the man followed by Cox, that Schwartz or Lawende were the seaside Home witness

Trust that clarify's

Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff,

Thanks for this. However, hasn't it been suggested that the City and Metropolitan forces had different suspects? Thus, the argument seems to be that Hyam Hyams was the suspect of Cox and the City Police, whereas Kosminski was the Met's alternative suspect. It's also been suggested that Joseph Levy identified both suspects: see http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...l?printer=true

[John G]

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Now, if only we start looking to body position.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

What do you think of Tom's remarks in Post 350? If I've understood him correctly, he seems to have concluded that Stride's body position indicates that she was attacked whilst facing the wall of the club, rather than whilst trying to exist the yard.

[S.Brett]

Hello Jeff,

Thanks for this. However, hasn't it been suggested that the City and Metropolitan forces had different suspects? Thus, the argument seems to be that Hyam Hyams was the suspect of Cox and the City Police, whereas Kosminski was the Met's alternative suspect. It's also been suggested that Joseph Levy identified both suspects: see http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...l?printer=true

Hi John!

Cox´s suspect: with short, black, curly hair
Hyam Hyams: with brown hair

Does it match?

From the last year:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=24578

Karsten.

[John G]

Hi John!

Cox´s suspect: with short, black, curly hair
Hyam Hyams: with brown hair

Does it match?

From the last year:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=24578

Karsten.

Hi Karsten,

Thanks for this. It's certainly all very perplexing!

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

Thanks for this. However, hasn't it been suggested that the City and Metropolitan forces had different suspects? Thus, the argument seems to be that Hyam Hyams was the suspect of Cox and the City Police, whereas Kosminski was the Met's alternative suspect. It's also been suggested that Joseph Levy identified both suspects: see http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...l?printer=true

Well Swanson states that Kozminski was watched by City police, so this seems most likely. Cox gives a lengthy report on the man he watched and followed with Black Curly hair...

We know that the family were later in business together near St Pauls and it seems reasonable to speculate that they had a business together before this in 1888.... If Cox is correct his 'little shop' probably on the corner of Wentworth and Castle Alley..... This would also tie with Reids theory of the man who drank at the princess Alice and lived near Berner Street..

But the key lays in the Kalish community... Morris was a boot maker, Issac a Taylor and Goulders father had been a Butcher...

'He occupied several premises in the area'

Was Aaron Kozminski the man who hadn't worked in years kept busy doing odd jobs? Delivering pet food, cleaning out, a night watchman would be well known and not suspected...

The Mad Snob?

Yours Jeff

[Jon Guy]

Hi John

What do you think of Tom's remarks in Post 350? If I've understood him correctly, he seems to have concluded that Stride's body position indicates that she was attacked whilst facing the wall of the club, rather than whilst trying to exist the yard.

As her face and feet were facing the wall, do you think that Stride, in her desperation to nail a cleaning job at the club, got fed up of waiting outside and decided to scale the wall up to the concert room ?

[John G]

Hi John



As her face and feet were facing the wall, do you think that Stride, in her desperation to nail a cleaning job at the club, got fed up of waiting outside and decided to scale the wall up to the concert room ?

Hello Jon,

Interestingly theory! I have given it much thought, however, it seems to me that it is not very probable, particularly as any attempt to scale the wall to the concert room, without the aid of grappling hooks and rope, would surerly be destined to end in failure!