Schwartz v. Lawende

[John G]

Hi John

But we do know of such an individual:

William Wess: "Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there,"

Hi Jon,

Thanks for this, I'd forgotten about him; in fact, to echo Pierre, perhaps this is a case of "I think I have found him!" However, being slightly more serious, I doubt that he was Stride's killer, or the suspect seen by PC Smith, who I also believe were one and the same.

Thus, if he murdered Stride, would he have admitted going into the Yard? And, being forthcoming with that information, isn't it likely he would also have admitted being the man PC Smith saw talking to Stride?

Of course, he also stated that he finally left the club at around 12:15 to go to his lodgings, which I think would have been around half an hour prior to PC Smith's sighting of Stride with the suspect.

Personally, I think if any club member had anything serious to hide, expecting other club members to cover for him, I doubt they would have admitted leaving, or returning, to the club at all prior to the time when the victim's body was found.

[Jon Guy]

So throat cuts have to be categorized by district to be counted? It was the third throat cut, which was mentioned to counter your idea that they were rare in London. Knife attacks were by far the most prevalent means of attack with weapons, the only time we need to look closer at a cut throat is when it is followed by abdominal mutilation. In Strides case, its an attack with a knife...like loads of others. Slit throat, stabs, slashes ...all knife attacks are what they are unless they are only a part of the complete act.

Liz Strides murder was a completed act.

Unsolved murders is the key, Michael
That`s what the Ripper police files consist of.

[Jon Guy]

And, if that was the case, presumably that would indicate a suspect who had just left the club premises, where the paper was published, however, we know of no such individual.

Hi John

But we do know of such an individual:

William Wess: "Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there,"

[John G]

Same dimension as a stack of Der Arbeter Fraint.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Wouldn't that depend on whether it was a full stack of papers? And, if that was the case, presumably that would indicate a suspect who had just left the club premises, where the paper was published, however, we know of no such individual.

[Rosella]

Didn't Packer say that he had put the grapes into a paper bag though, presumably a brown paper bag, not newspaper? The parcel could have been anything, but it's worth remembering that Astrakhan Man also carried a parcel.

[Jeff Leahy]

Yes, Packer said he put the grapes in a bag, and PC Smith saw a man carrying a newspaper parcel.

Hi Jon

Been following this thread with interest and like most ripperologists have tended to dismiss Packer for obvious reasons..

However I think this is a very obvious and simple observation. Every time anyone mentions the parcel under his arm everyone altermatically assumes something sinister....but perhaps something more obvious makes sense..

For some time I've been convinced that the woman at least knew there attacker by sight and may have been bribed by their killer... I also can't help wondering if Stride spent more time with her killer than the others...

Not that I'm in any doubt that they were all prostitutes

Many thanks for this observation

Yours Jeff

[Tom_Wescott]

Wasn't the newspaper parcel described by pc Smith said to be 18" x 6"?
That's an awful lot of grapes!

Same dimension as a stack of Der Arbeter Fraint.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DJA]

Could have been the latest hand gun.

Not kidding.

[Joshua Rogan]

Wasn't the newspaper parcel described by pc Smith said to be 18" x 6"?
That's an awful lot of grapes!

[DJA]

I I haven't seen the Tall Man, so that joke's lost on me.

You mean to say that you don't have a Clu

[Wickerman]

Because none of the men Stride was seen with were holding grapes, nor was Stride.

Yes, Packer said he put the grapes in a bag, and PC Smith saw a man carrying a newspaper parcel.
You do know what a half-pound of grapes looks like?, you can't fit that in your pocket.
Market stallers often make a bag out of folded newspaper, its efficient, flexible, and cheap.
Packer doesn't command the size of business where he can afford to buy bags.
Once again, it isn't a case of evidence proving he sold them grapes, its more a case of nothing we read proves he couldn't have.

And that's nonsense about fruit stains on handkerchief having anything to do with grapes.

Well that's easy to say Tom, but good luck in explaining precisely why a woman wiping grape skins & pips from her lips with a handkerchief is, "nonsense".

Where were the seeds and skins?

On the pavement Tom, in the street.
Nobody looked, and by the 4th, it would have been pointless.

[Wickerman]

Sounds like Cross!

Agree with the rest also.

Did a little deeper.....why would two private eyes want to take him to Scotland Yard to see/not see Warren?

The way the sentence is worded, we can't be sure if Sgt. White overheard Grand & Batchelor telling Packer they would take him to Scotland Yard, or whether they only told Sgt. White they were taking him to Scotland Yard.

Packer made no mention of where he went or who he saw, so the issue is questionable at best. What we do know is that Packer gave a statement to police on that same day, 4th Oct.
We can also infer the police had him back for a second interview for some reason, no prizes for guessing why.

[John G]

Stride was one of only TWO women that night murdered the same way. I don't believe you (or many people, for that matter) are aware of how Sarah Brown was murdered. It was a sloppy attack of multiple stabbings and cuts, which is actually typical of knife murders. Stride was killed with a single cut to the throat. This is an exceedingly rare method of murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Excellent point, Tom. It seems to me that Stride's murder had none of the hallmarks of a more common domestic crime. In fact, all the evidence suggests an audacious murder, with the victim killed in a clinically efficient manner, i.e. caught completely by surprise, and therefore given no opportunity to call for help, resist, or attempt an escape.

And, despite the fact the murder took place next to a busy club, no one saw or heard anything suspicious, and the killer successfully effected an escape without attracting any attention towards himself whatsoever.

It also appears that the killer knew how to avoid getting bloodstained and, despite the stress and pressure you would expect him to be under, the piece of mind to take precautions:

Coroner: From the position you assume the perpetrator to have been in, would he have been likely to get bloodstained?

Dr Phillips: Not necessarily, for the commencement of the wound and injury to the vessels would be away from him, and the stream of blood-for stream it was-would be directed away from him, and towards the gutter in the yard."

[Tom_Wescott]

So throat cuts have to be categorized by district to be counted? It was the third throat cut, which was mentioned to counter your idea that they were rare in London. Knife attacks were by far the most prevalent means of attack with weapons, the only time we need to look closer at a cut throat is when it is followed by abdominal mutilation. In Strides case, its an attack with a knife...like loads of others. Slit throat, stabs, slashes ...all knife attacks are what they are unless they are only a part of the complete act.

Liz Strides murder was a completed act.

Stride was one of only TWO women that night murdered the same way. I don't believe you (or many people, for that matter) are aware of how Sarah Brown was murdered. It was a sloppy attack of multiple stabbings and cuts, which is actually typical of knife murders. Stride was killed with a single cut to the throat. This is an exceedingly rare method of murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

So throat cuts have to be categorized by district to be counted? It was the third throat cut, which was mentioned to counter your idea that they were rare in London. Knife attacks were by far the most prevalent means of attack with weapons, the only time we need to look closer at a cut throat is when it is followed by abdominal mutilation. In Strides case, its an attack with a knife...like loads of others. Slit throat, stabs, slashes ...all knife attacks are what they are unless they are only a part of the complete act.

Liz Strides murder was a completed act.

London had a population of 5.6 million in 1888, Whitechapel around 75000. However, in 1885 there were only 9 murders in the whole of London (8 in 1886; 13 in 1887; 17 in 1889.) So murder was comparatively rare for this period; and I would imagine that the vast majority of those murders would be domestic incidents, with an obvious perpetrator: like Sarah Brown, for example.

However, in 1888 the London murder rate more than doubled from the previous year, with 28 victims: hardly surprising, though, if a serial killer was on the loose!